Wait, tell me that again. Let's say you're married, and you open your own account, and you're like, "I'm going to squirrel away money in this account cuz I want my own separate account." It is not separate. That is marital monies. Do people realize that?
No, but they do once they come for a consultation. You're a divorce attorney. And you imploded, yeah. Do you still believe in love? Of course. Oh, yeah. I'm a hopeless romantic. Divorce is on the rise, and divorce attorney Jenny Hutt is breaking down why more women are leaving long marriages and how to protect yourself if you do. Jenny Hutt, welcome to The Tamsen Show.
Thank you for having me. I just want to let your listeners and your viewers know that I fully reached out to you and was like, "Tamsen, can I please come on your podcast? Can I please please come on your podcast?" I I completely did the pushy, "Take me." And you were like, "Yes." Which, thank you.
Oh my God, well, thank you because you brought this topic to me, which is something I've been kind of circling around, but I'm glad we're going to jump into it. We're going to talk about divorce. Yes. First of all, I want to say this. We met a few years ago, and through that course, you've done some of your own pivots. You're a divorce attorney. I And you imploded, yeah.
Yes. But, you want to tell You you tell your story, then. So, several awful things kind of happened in in one fell swoop, including the falling apart of my marriage. I am currently separated from my husband, but not legally, which is a a whole other thing we can get into, sort of the differences. I don't talk about the details because I have two adult children, and I feel like it's their story in part to tell, too. And I also say to my clients, "Don't put the inner goings-on of your married or the marriage or the dissolution of your marriage out on the internet or publicly cuz A, it's it's not that unique, and B, once it's out there, there's no coming back, and C, if a judge happens upon your story online and and doesn't really love what you're saying, that could impact your case."
Which is interesting to me because there's so many books out right now talking about that. Yeah. What do you think? Do you think that's okay because they've now gone through the process and the process is over and now they're helping other women? well things like you mean Strangers, Belle Burden's book or there's that beautiful book by Maggie Smith this could be a beautiful place I think it's called. I think once you're past the divorce and sort of you have the terms of your agreement and your settlement is done sure as long as you're not violating anything in the agreement then then it's okay and if you really read those books as long as they're truthful and they're not salacious for the sake of being salacious then I then I think it's okay and it's up to each person how comfortable they are.
Maggie Smith's book You Can Make This Place Beautiful is really an exceptional magnificent read because it was just her process and her story and it was very little about how sort of he got there. And it was really about her and I thought she did a magnificent job.
I think it's interesting for women to be speaking out because 15 years ago I think that's what it was when I went through my divorce I wanted to hide that. I was embarrassed by it. I wish I had met you then. I was $100,000 in debt. You know, Page Six loved it because it was salacious and the papers loved it. because you were a matchmaker.
Yeah, we had a business. So so what's more exciting to hear about than matchmakers getting divorced? Like I talk about headlines I would have probably written about it. But but it was a very hard time. So I'm grateful that people are talking about that more. And I think we've also moved into this new area. When you texted me you said there's this phenomenon gray divorce and I said I've heard about it before hate the term because it means it's happening in midlife when I guess your hair is gray. Yeah. Not mine. I'm coloring that every two weeks. Me too. Those roots, yeah. Me too every two weeks.
Every two weeks. I like that. Yeah. But it really has become a real phenomenon. Do you think it's one because we're hearing about it more, two because women are more independent, three you know, I I don't know what it is. Is it all the above?
It's all the above but I also think Tamsen like you just said that you were wanting to hide when it happened to you. There's still so much shame. I just think that we have the internet now, and people are online, and they're finding a place to put their shame. And there Some people call it an act of bravery. I just call it putting one foot in front of the other, and you kind of have to keep going. And I think that it's almost like um exposure therapy. The way to deal with it is to And I don't want to be one of those people that I think the New York The New York Times just did a thing about uh when people do psychology speak when they're not therapists therapists I'm not a therapist at all.
But uh anecdotally in what I see is that the more we deal with what we have to deal with, the easier it becomes to sort of deal with it and to say it out loud. And it's really painful, and it's really hard, and that shame thing that you experienced we've all experienced. It's a it's a hit in your identity. It's a hit on your finances. It's a hit on who you thought you were, what you thought life would be. It's a dream crusher. It is.
For everyone who gets divorced, whether you initiated it or were blindsided by it, it's a dream crusher. This is not what you thought your life was going to look like. Yeah, you didn't jump into it. Now, in some cases I look back now and I go, "Oh my gosh, thank goodness that's what happened to me when that happened, or where would I be today?" So, for me, I'm it was a dream crusher at the time. However, today it was just like made my life so different. And where I am now. Why do you think people often wait until midlife to go through a divorce?
So, I think when they have children, I think one of those things is it's very painful. Divorce, separation, a change in the family dynamic, cuz a marriage is more than just the husband and the wife, or the husband and the husband, or the wife and the wife. It's more than just the two people. They're kids. So, I think there is a thing about waiting till the kids are out of the house. I think that's very common. I also think sometimes you think everything's good. The kids leave, and then the two people look at each other and have nothing to say because everything's been about the children.
And if you can work through that, fantastic. And if you can't, then you've got one life. I do think there is that moment that comes that you look at your mortality and you had Hope Edelman on the podcast talking motherless daughters. And when you've lost your mother, Mhm.
I think mortality becomes at the forefront. And you certainly went through that. I went through that. And you look and you say, "How much time do I have left?" My mother made it to 65. Your mom made it to 50. Like 100%. I mean, I couldn't I couldn't say it better than that. Like that is 100% what it is. Is I think about that all the time. Like how much is left because every year passed when my mother died, you know, I've now 4 years passed. I go, "Oh my gosh, I I got those extra 4 years." Like that to me is a gift. It's a real gift.
So, let's stay with the people that the kids leave and they look at each other and say, "Who are we? What are we doing?" Yeah. However, Yeah. everything is together, right? There's assets that are together. They've worked together. They've built together. When people come in to you, are they coming in to you saying like, "Listen, I want to file for divorce, Jenny. Just divorce me from this person."
So, there's I I've had those. And I've had people come in I've had people zoom same day they retain me and say, "Please file tomorrow." Like that happens. Or I have people who come to me and say, "I think I want to do this. What do I have to do to prepare? I'm not 100% sure. Okay. know anything. I don't know my finances. I don't know what's marital and what's separate property. Now, I'm a New York family law attorney. So, I practice here. In other states, there are different laws. But New York is a no-fault divorce state and an equitable distribution state. What does that mean?
Okay. So, that means that the assets get divided in the absence of a prenuptial agreement equitably, which isn't always 50/50. Often it is, but you take this marital pot of all of the assets and you equitably divide them. And there's ways to do this completely out of court, ways to do it with a little bit of court intervention, or ways to do it full-on trial. Now, you want to do your best not to have to to do that. And and I know that you know this, but I'll tell you, divorce is all boiled down to your division of assets, support, whether it's spousal support, child support, or both, and parenting custody.
That's pretty much the the main aspects of a divorce. So So, if you have somebody coming in saying Yes. I think I want a divorce, but I'm not sure. Mhm. What do I do? Yeah. Do you get those questions? Because those are almost like a question a therapist needs to be working somebody through, but I'm sure you get those questions. and I always tell people to to go to therapy, have a therapist, or have a trusted somebody in their life beyond their lawyer. Though it is very common in family law for the lawyers to sort of take on the role of not actual therapist, but confidant.
It's a It's a very emotional and intimate field of law, which is why it's so darn wonderful because I can really see how I can help somebody, and and see it in real time, see someone feeling really at their lowest. More of I'm sure is what happened to you. Look at you, Tamsen, living your best life. Like you go from feeling just the worst Yeah. to, you know, seeing this person rise again is the most beautiful, like life-affirming thing.
You You were changing lives and giving somebody a a second chance or a second themselves that chance. Right. Right. Once I get But to be like the conduit to help them and to let them know they'll be okay because it's an awful feeling when you think you're at the end.
Well, there's just so much to deal with, too. You know, I I mean, I've not hidden the fact that it was $100,000 in debt, and there was So, yeah. And it was marital debt? It was marital debt. Well, yes, it was. It was uh There was a business involved, but this was the debt, and that was both of ours because I'm the one that had the credit cards and the I you know so I didn't know anything. You know I I grew up and you you know you I don't even think anyone had the conversation with me. You should have an account, he should have an account, they should have an account. know in New York, you have to both have an account separately, it's marital unless it's a before the marriage.
Wait, tell me that again. Okay, so in New York let's say you're married and you open your own account and you're like, I'm going to squirrel away money in this account because I want my own separate account. It is not separate. That is marital monies. Do people realize that?
No, but they do once they come for a consultation. So you never have your own money unless what? unless it's from before the marriage or if you inherit money from a parent or from anybody or given a gift and you never commingle it. So if a parent dies and leaves you money and you put that in a separate account and never put that in your joint account that stays separate. But if you're working while you're married and you put away money in your retirement account, that retirement account's a marital asset.
So let's help the woman that's saying, I'm not sure what I want to do. Yeah. But what do I need to know going into this cuz I'm not even sure if I want a divorce, maybe I want a separation, trial separation. Is there something that they should do in terms of planning now?
Yes, so I was saying before screenshots. They get account information as much as you can from your spouse. Very often unfortunately and I think it's much more a function of our generation cuz you and I are similarly aged that we weren't really taught to know a lot about our financial situation. We weren't really told we had to be economically independent, financially savvy. Isn't that crazy? Yes.
When you say that out loud, I'm staring at you. I think it's crazy. Cuz with my children who are both adults, I will say to them, you need to know how much money you have, put away money, don't get yourself in debt, like do the best you can but be super aware. I want my daughter to always be able to support herself whether she's married or she isn't, like always be able to take care of yourself and know your financial life. Like that's important. So, find out. Look at the statements that come in. Check the emails. If your spouse is not transparent, that is a problem.
Because if you're a team, you should be able to know how much you have, how much you've saved, how much debt there is, what the monthly expenses are, what's the mortgage, whose name is the mortgage in, whose name is the house in is if there's a house, who owns the cars, are the cars owned, are they leased? All those things.
Right. It's a lot. But listen, I want to play devil's advocate for a minute. 20 25 years you haven't paid attention to any of this. Yes. And then Thursday you wake up and you're going to ask, "I can I see the bank accounts?" Yeah. Somebody goes, "Well, you don't trust me?"
I saw something on TV that said that it's important for everyone to know. Okay. That's That's Just come up with My friend was saying that this happened and I have to have an idea of what's what. God forbid you die tomorrow. What am I going to do if I don't know what's in the bank account, how to do your funeral, do we have life insurance, what here? You frame it in that way. You don't have to disclose anything to your partner that you're thinking so and especially if you feel unsafe, that's the other thing that women need to know. If you're feeling unsafe in your marriage, there are remedies.
There are orders of protection. You can go and get them to if you're if you're in an an abusive situation and I know that's over simplifying it. But please seek help. Please reach out to family law attorney. Many of us do complimentary consultations. So, you don't need money to have an initial conversation to know what your rights are and I think it's really important to know your rights.
I think it's really important that we put that in the show notes and the information how to contact you if you're somebody that is in danger or feeling unsafe and if somebody is wanting to have a conversation about possibly exploring the idea of a divorce or a separation.
Yes. We started with those bank accounts. You're not suggesting that somebody open a bank account before they leave because if they do that, now it's a marital It's still marital. Right? Yeah, until you file. So once you've filed for divorce, that stops the clock on the marital money. So now anything you bring in is separate and anything they bring in is separate.
Okay, so that that's the way to do that, but that is that you have to file for that divorce. Correct, but that also stops So this gets into like who's the money spouse cuz that also stops the clock on the big fat retirement account if your spouse is the money spouse, that's that's the amount of money in there now even if it grows.
Let's talk about debt. We talked about the assets. You on the situation. Some is marital and some is separate. Depends on what the debt's from. What does that mean? If you brought in you came into the marriage with debt? Right, that can be separate. Yes.
If you didn't come into the marriage with debt, but your partner all of a sudden has accrued all this debt that you didn't know about, is that yours? It's it's fact based, so it depends on what the debt is for. If it's a if it's for the business of the marriage, then that can be a marital debt.
For the business of the marriage, what does that mean? Like That That helps support us. Yes. And that's also the thing about businesses. Someone might try to claim that their business is separate property. But if your business is supporting the marriage and those business distributions are what's going to pay the rent or pay whatever, then that becomes a marital asset as well. You can't Yeah.
So, walk me through what happens once somebody says, "Okay, I'm filing for divorce." Yes. Well, you mean when they go to the They they go to say yes. And And they said, "You know what? I'm ready. File for divorce." What happens next? So, we do what's called filing a summons and complaint, and then their spouse is served. So, there's This can happen two ways. Usually, it's better if it's not acrimonious at this point for the party that came to me to say to their spouse, "This is what I'm thinking about and this is what I'm doing." That doesn't always happen. And um but you can also file and not do anything.
You have 4 months in New York to serve the other party. So, if you want to just file and not have your spouse know that you're doing it, you can do that. Buy yourself some time, stop the clock on the finances, separate the assets, and then serve when you feel ready. When you Or you could decide to never serve, and then after the 4 months, you'd have to re-file again if you decided you wanted to go through with it.
I don't think I realized that. So, you could file, your spouse doesn't know, and you have 4 months to decide that was the decision I actually made. days to serve. What is the biggest thing that people struggle with when they come in to see you? I guess it's whether they're going to actually go through with it or not. Yeah. Or is it what they're fighting for?
It's usually whether they're going to go through with it. I think there's a myth, this idea of what they're fighting for, meaning like guns blazing, I'm going to take them for everything they have. That's the stuff of TV shows, and I love the TV shows. I loved All's Fair, the Kim Kardashian one. I It was like candy. It was camp. It was the best time. It's also not how it works, even kind of a little bit.
And not how you want it to work, by the way. That is really stressful and and takes over your life for a while. Because the truth is that when there is a settlement, you hope that there's a settlement in a divorce, nobody's happy, but everybody can live with it. And that's really your goal at the end of it because divorce is hard and each party is entitled to certain assets and when there are kids involved, you better put those kids first and really think about them. And if you do have children and you let them guide you, it'll usually make the settlement that much um sort of easier to to get to.
But to answer your question, there's a lot of kind of back and forth of not knowing what you want. And what I say to my clients all the time is if you want to reconcile tomorrow, go reconcile. There's no judgment. It's like there's a myriad of reasons why people get divorced and if you can work through it and you would rather stay together, stay together. But if you can't, you don't have to.
So you have people that go through divorce. What do you think is harder, especially for women because that's who we're talking to here, is it the financial part of it or is it rebuilding who they think they were or are? really tied together. Um I've seen both scenarios and sort of the combining of the two of the financial hit because everybody takes some sort of financial and lifestyle hit because you're going from living as a couple often with two incomes, some sometimes not, but you have total access to the income that's funding the family business of marriage and then you don't have that anymore. So that's half is essentially gone, that lifestyle is gone.
So there's that. And then there's the really difficult identity piece we touched on a little bit earlier of you you were half of a whole. Mhm. You were a wife. Mhm. You were this person in society who was looked at one way. I mean even just taking off a wedding band, when I the day we separated, I took off my engagement ring and my wedding band, and that still has been a strange thing. I I love my engagement ring. I love my wedding band, but I I don't wear them anymore, and that felt weird as a sign in society that somehow says, "Hi, I'm available."
Now, I I don't feel all that available, period, the end, because I'm 56 years old and, you know, tired. But, uh just so tired. But, um but there's something about that identity thing, and then and then feeling like a third wheel, or what to do with yourself, and learning to live differently and on your own, and do things, you know, just figuring out what you want for dinner. You know what?
It is huge. It's funny you say that, cuz I've done a couple of um I've done a couple of different videos about this, and this was my big hard part when I went through a divorce. I was working, you know, and I would go I would go out to eat in between the newscast, and I'd go into a restaurant and be like, "Um, one." And they would say, "Just one?" Oh.
And I go, "Yeah." And they go, "Do you want to sit at the bar?" Oh. And I go, "No, I don't want to sit at the bar. I want to sit at a table with everybody else, if you don't mind." And so, I think there really is, sadly, still a real stigma around that of going I'm hoping that changes and is lifted a bit, but you're right, all things change when you go through a separation or divorce like that.
Yeah, and there's also that thing of is divorce contagious? And then, suddenly, the woman is looked at like she wants everyone's husband. Like, I want none of them. Like, honestly, keep your husband. What do you do with that? With the friendships? Do you Do you have people address that with you? Because I did. Yeah, I
I felt like I wasn't part of the friend groups, and some people picked him, and some people picked me, and that's just kind of I was very upset at the time. Now, I'm I'm I'm glad it turned out the way it is, but that's 15 years later.
I'm really, really lucky. I have an incredible support system, and Keith and I, we get along really well, and um my kids are are what matter more than anything and there hasn't really been any of that. There hasn't had to be and I hope there never is. I I never wanted any of this, regardless of what our future holds, to be um, a breaking of family. Mhm. We're still a family in whatever incarnation that may be and um, because we have two adult kids that God willing one day will go on to have their own families.
Do you think that we're getting to a place where I don't want to say divorce is easier, but we see examples of where things work or separation works, where people can still feel whole and don't feel like they have to rip each other apart? Yes, I do and I do think
Well, it feels like I know the divorce rate has gone down, but it's gone up exponentially in women over 50. So, I do think that there's this thing about women our age that when we find ourselves in this spot of our marriage is ending or we're finding ourselves single, whether it's sometimes somebody dies. I mean there's you just you don't typically get out of this life holding someone else's hand. And I'm finding that women are living together and forging these and forming these communities of um, like-minded women of a similar age and sometimes not and feeling really whole. My life is very, very full day-to-day between work and my dogs and living alone, gosh, I love it so much.
I hadn't done it since I was 23 and so to find myself that in in that situation at 53, it was strange. It was very, very strange, but then like I'm eating cream of wheat for dinner and like or anything else. I can order a whole pizza cuz I have free will and it's fine. Like you could do anything. I can exercise at 8:00 at night if I want to or stay in my pajamas all day and it's just it's heavenly.
I I like your outlook probably helps so many of your clients in a lot of different ways. And you yourself have gone through a lot of life shifts. Yeah. A lot. Yeah. Can we go into where you are right now because you're sitting across me looking beautiful. You're very very honest about what you do. I really appreciate it cuz we're talking about this second or third or fifth. I don't know what chapter of life we're talking about anymore. But you decided to make some changes for yourself despite some of the pivots that were happening to you.
So when I you know, my dad died. I used to be on SiriusXM. I was so excited to come here cuz you're a broadcaster and like you know how to do all this stuff. So this is a really fun podcast. Um but when I went through that first identity shift and I know you did that too when you stopped doing your broadcasting job and I stopped doing my broad and that was weird. Then my dad died and that was like wait, what? Like now I have no parents. That was horrible. Then my marriage fell apart. Yeah.
Uh then I had to move which I had lived next door to the house that I grew up in since I was married and um lived in that house when I grew up and only didn't for like 7 years college in the near city or whatever and law school and um and then I had a financial hit and and I had to move and then my daughter had a heart attack. I mean there were like so many things that happened at once that were just awful. And my daughter thank God is okay and I'm I live every morning truly with gratitude. Like I wake up every day and I say thank you I'm alive.
Thank you my baby's alive. Thank you my son is good. Like I live my life so grateful. Is that different than what you did when you were 35 or 45? I wasn't aware then and I and I was really chasing stuff that didn't matter. And um yeah, for sure. It's very different. I I just I don't care Tamsin the way I did like I would salivate over a handbag at 35. And not that not that I don't love a great handbag. I'm on my way. But it just doesn't matter.
Where do you think you learn that? Do you think you learn that through time? Do you learn that through what you're doing as a career now? Because that was another pivot that you took. It Yeah, and it's such a better but I mean, do you miss the TV thing?
Not a Not a day because I get to still sit across from people that I'm interested in like you and talk to them. Those are the conversations. You're not waiting for someone else to say to you you're good enough to be here. Like it's a strange phenomenon that whole TV thing if you've if you've done it. And I I don't know. And also there was so much in doing live radio and doing it was so much about me and it was exhausting. Like I don't want it to Like I want to help other people. It feels better. I mean, that's selfish cuz it feels so good to help them.
But yeah, I just I I it's a to me it's a gift every day. But but back to what you were saying, yes. I had a really awful low point when all those things happened and I looked at myself and I was skinny and I thought great, I'm thin and I should be happy cuz I'm finally thin cuz it wasn't even GLP I'm on a GLP-1 now cuz of menopause, but I wasn't. I was on a I was You were under stress.
My life was first time in my life I ever lost weight from being stressed. I was that sad. I actually couldn't eat. It was shocking. It was like but I looked terrible and I had, you know, this extra skin all over my face and my neck and I didn't have much of a savings account because my life fell apart and I wasn't working and um that little bit of savings I had I took and bought myself a facelift. Were you scared?
I was excited. I Yeah, I ruminated about it for months. Yeah. And then I just pulled the trigger cuz I felt like I just knew that working from the outside in would do something. And it really did. It It's It was the physical manifestation of my stress was so great that I had to actually have it cut off. And there was such a lightness in my being after my facelift. I I couldn't have I couldn't have planned it any any better. For the critics Yes. where there always are There were plenty.
What did they say? And what How did you I mean you did Obviously it didn't it didn't matter to you, but what do you say to the people that are must be nice to afford it or you should have put the money to something else or why won't don't you want to age gracefully?
I don't want to age gracefully. I want to age gracefully and I want to age period. That's first and foremost I want to age. But what good is a life if you're unhappy? For me, that was not how I wanted to have my life and I felt like it was in a way for me also an investment into my career, into feeling like I could show up in court and feel good about myself. And I don't feel this way for anybody else. It was for me. And some people think that it's shallow. Some people didn't understand it. Work on your inside if you love yourself and you shouldn't care what you look like.
Okay, great. That's good. Like if you can do that, God bless. I don't have that. I I come from My mother always had perfect nails, always had perfect hair, had like several facelifts and over the I mean over corrected for sure and that was not my plan, but I knew it was the right decision for me. And yes, could that money have been saved but it's the first time in my life I didn't regret spending. I still don't. And I made the money back working. Like and I show up more. I can go anywhere. I'm not worried about my face. That's
I knew you before, I know you after. I felt the different energy when you walk into the room. Not a woo-woo energy, but a different Like I'm happier. Baller, got this, I'm here, I'm showing up. I love that you reached out to me and asked to come on.
Yeah. I sure did. That's the thing. You got to take all your shots, people. So, yeah, let's talk about that. If there is a woman that's like listen, maybe I'm going through a separation, maybe I'm looking at a divorce, maybe I'm just looking at a big a big change, but I don't know how I'm going to survive that hard different scary yes change in my life. What is your advice because I think you've done that. When we've gone through the death of parents, when we've gone through separation or divorce, when you've gone through financial difficulty. Gone through health scares, you feel like you can kind of get through anything.
What's your advice to that person? I think when it happens and you know this too. I don't know in the moment that you're like, oh I'm going to do great on the other side of this. It's going to be wonderful. is so fun. Um you just do the things anyway. And I've said this a gazillion times in many different ways. It's one foot in front of the other. It's getting up in the morning and going to sleep at night. It's doing the thing even though you're terrified to do it. And it's a resilience that maybe you have to develop. I think I do innately have that thing in my belly that keeps going.
I don't I've never you know, up until now and who knows what'll happen, but I've never been comfortable in the victim mentality cuz I do mostly even when I've had dark times like see the good in being here. And that is probably my wiring. But there's always opportunity as long as you're alive, right? Like there's always a chance for things to change. Why does every change have to be bad?
And you made that change to become a divorce attorney. You were practicing law. I love your energy with it though. That's so important. it's so great and I it's my clients. I think look, I don't believe well, all right. So, my theory on the whole manifestation thing Tamsen is manifestation's great if you're actually working and doing it. So, you know, you can't just say like, I want to win the lottery and put your head on the pillow. I'm manifesting that I've won the lottery and put your head on the pillow and go to sleep at night and tomorrow you win the lottery. But I think if you think about it and you want it and you attract it because you're doing the work.
You got to do the work and if you love the work, uh I love it. I love that I get to do it. It's a privilege. Where can people find you if they're like, I need Jenny Hutt in my life right now. I don't know if this is what I'm going through yet, but I need somebody to help me make this decision.
Yeah, so I also want to say that there are divorce coaches, there are therapists, there's communities of women and men who are there to help if you're in it a tough spot. Like I'm not the only game in town. I'm a real good game, but I'm not the only game in town. So I'll put that out there. I am jenny@lawjaw.com is my email. Anybody can email me. I I I'm of counsel at a firm called Wisselman Harounian and I really credit partner at this firm Jackie who is she and my sister-in-law both told me that this was the type of law I needed to be practicing when I wanted to go back into practice.
And they were right. They knew before I knew. And my Instagram justjennyhutt, of course I do you know, DMs and all that. All right, finally I have to ask you this one question. Do you still believe in love? Of course. Oh, yeah. I'm a hopeless romantic, sure.
Love it. I know I knew that was the answer. I could feel it from you. Oh, and I believe in happiness and I want everyone to be married forever, but not every marriage lasts forever. So somebody's got to help people through it. I can't think of anybody better, Jenny. Thank you, Tamsen. Thanks.
