She knew from the first class, I can make a career out of this. She told me I was a prodigy. Then I moved to New York and I become a professional and all of a sudden I'm no longer the ideal. What's the ideal? A small head, a long neck, long arms and hands and fingers, long legs, narrow hips, long feet, and also to have the skin the color of a freshly peeled apple. Ballet told her she had the wrong body and the wrong skin color.
Misty Copeland became a legend anyway. As the first Black woman promoted to principal dancer at American Ballet Theatre, she changed who the world pictured when it thought of a ballerina and she made the whole world pay attention. Today on The Tamsen Show, she's telling her story. The fight to be seen, the history she's made, and why at 43 she's nowhere near done. Do you have advice for people that say like, I I have a next chapter in me and I'm told I'm too old, I'm beyond my prime. You don't believe that. Absolutely not. I mean, I think I'm proof that like it's never too late for so many things.
Misty, it's good to see you. Great to see you. I'm happy to have you here and I feel like there there are so many things I know about you and then there's so many things I don't. So, I'm excited for everybody to to hear your story from you. But before we get to where you are today, I would love to go back to a pivotal age of 13 when you walked into your first ballet class.
Did it feel like yesterday in some ways to you? Yeah. I mean, I think it's something that I'm constantly like revisiting. Especially like with, you know, having my foundation, having the Misty Copeland Foundation now, kind of going back and um remembering like the why I'm a part of something and why I do it. So, I I feel like I often think about that 13-year-old girl and the why was this need for expression in a way that worked for me. Um this kind of craving of joy within the expression and um stability, consistency, safety so many like it important things that I needed in my life at that age that I'm constantly thinking about. Even more so now as an adult, I guess. Yeah, even more so now as an adult as we I develop these programs you know, when I'm thinking about people, you know, in that same developmental stage of their lives and the necessity and importance and the values of of having the arts in your life and the tools and that it can give you.
I don't know if everyone always realizes just how important that is to everything else that we worry about throughout the day and how how critical it is in so many in so many cases.
Who who was Misty at 13? Oh my goodness. At home I was sassy and you know, just I don't know if I was trying to stand out. I think I was just kind of existing amongst my five siblings. I'm one of six. And so it was just always loud and chaotic and it was like I was an introverted child but like trying to um I guess survive like within that space. So at home, I like had a little bit of an edge, but I was moving. Like, I loved, loved dancing, even though I had no real, uh, introduction or understanding of what that really meant outside of like seeing my mom dance around the house because she danced growing up and she was a professional cheerleader for the Kansas City Chiefs football team and, uh, or what I saw on, you know, MTV and BET.
Like that was the extent of what I knew of as dance but I loved to move and I was obsessed with Mariah Carey and that was like my existence before ballet came into my life. Before you really knew what ballet what ballet was. Yeah, I knew nothing about it. Ballet? Had you looked at it and no. Nothing? No, I mean I had I was slightly obsessed with gymnastics and it was specifically the floor exercises and you know, reflecting and looking back um I really feel like it was the closest thing that I'd seen to classical movement. You know, what they're doing kind of the uh the connecting steps you know, in between what they're doing you know, all of the flips and everything. This was the the most connected and close to classical dance in terms of lyrical movement, and and I started imitating that.
And that's kind of where this choreography came out of me: was like this mix of like pop culture, like what I'm seeing in music videos and then the Olympics and watching the floor exercises, and then something was coming out of me. And I, but I'd never seen ballet before. I know you've described the stage as a protective bubble for you. What what did you feel like you needed to be protected from? Oh, wow. Um there was just so much chaos in my life like from the from birth. Um you know, constantly moving. My mom married several times and I just never had a place that was home. Um and just not ever really knowing what the next day would bring. I mean it literally could be my mom waking us up in the middle of the night and leaving the father I knew and moving in with someone I didn't know and moving schools and that became like this theme in my life and so I never even knew like what real stability and safety meant.
Um and having the consistency of showing up in the ballet studio and knowing what to expect. I knew that I was going to do pliés, followed by tendus, followed by dégagés, and this you know, and and there's something that was so amazing that kind of calmed this anxiety in me because I knew what to expect. And I can anticipate, as well as being creative. And this really calming feeling I felt that came over me, being in a ballet studio and hearing classical music, which is quite the opposite of what a lot of children experience where it feels very demanding, and often, I think, they kind of confused like repetition with being bored. And all of those things made me feel safe and made me feel calm.
Well, because it was a predictability in it that you didn't you didn't have. Obviously, I mean it you probably didn't realize it at the time but your body did. Oh, yes. Realized it at the time. I mean it was really instant. I had severe migraines growing up and I was on medication for and I mean I would have to leave school early. I would throw up and within months of starting ballet, they started to go away. Wow. And I know it was so connected to like the stresses that I you know had from my my life and there I had no outlet and or any ways that I was you know kind of calming myself. I know that at one point, you know, as you were dancing, your relationship with your mom became very complicated.
Can you explain what happened briefly? Yeah, it was such an interesting time. I feel like I grew immensely in a very short period of time. I feel like I was really stunted in in my development for a 13-year-old. I wasn't social. I didn't have a parent a parental figure that was like pushing me or challenging me in any way. I was literally just in survival mode all the time, and when I got into dance, I started to really find my voice and this sense of confidence and and freedom and creativity and, and I just like just started becoming a person and. I was living with my ballet teacher and her family at the time because I started late and, and she she knew from the first class that this was a I could make a career out of this.
She told me I was a prodigy and so a lot of my time was spent there and it was really tough for my mom. Um to you know, in her mind I was being taken away from her. Uh she understood I think to some extent my talent but not really the the bigger picture and so it became this battle between my ballet teacher and my mom, you know, who uh could give me the right um atmosphere and um you know, upbringing to be able to become a professional dancer. You knew somewhere deep, though, that that's what you had to do. And I I, you know, I I looked back and I saw an interview with your your, um, ballet teacher, and I thought, "You were so young, but you seemed so grown up to me in the decisions that, you know, that you were that you were making," because you knew something so deep down.
Not everybody knows that. A lot of people would be swayed in either direction whoever seemed to be a stronger person at the time. I think that was the only time in my life that I've ever been ever been that way um because dance was the it was the only thing and the first thing that I really felt a sense of belonging and um that this was something that I was meant to do and at 15 like that I am meant to do this. 13. I knew it from the moment I started. Um and also like getting a taste of what nurturing looked like and someone seeing something in me and really giving me the space and time um to grow and into this into it.
And I'd never experienced that before and I you know, the thought of going back home um and back to what my life was it was like I I couldn't let that happen. Not just because I felt like I was getting a better life but I was like developing and growing into a person I didn't even know was possible to become. You started late I guess for ballet, right? What was that like?
Did you feel like you had an extra pressure on you? I don't know what the what is the average age I guess that somebody really starts that versus what what age you started? I would say seven is like pushing it. Oh wow, really? People will start like I mean my son started ballet at two. That's like pretty typical. Um but I would say when you're really like cognizant of like what you're doing and when you can still really shape the body before you hit puberty, I would say seven's like a common age to start.
So were right in puberty when you started, really? Well, I was not. Okay. Um, I started much later in, um, in life. But it's that age when you're you're, you know, right, that most girls, young girls, would be. But my body was still growing, and there was still a lot of room for molding it, um, which is why I think the timing was totally fine for me to start at that age and, um, I didn't feel the pressures. I mean I feel like that's kind of been a theme throughout my my life and my career is like when I know that I'm meant to be doing something like the outside noise and pressures really can like penetrate. That's amazing. Yeah, it's very interesting. It's peo-people work their whole lives to have that quiet when they know something, but you you there's no question even when I look back at old interviews of you or video of you, you absolutely knew that.
No question. Yeah, I did. And yeah, I mean it was it was an amazing feeling just to be given an opportunity again because I'd never been in a in any at any point in my life where someone saw something in me and they said you can do this and I'm going to invest in you. What did that feel like when when that ballet teacher her name is? Cynthia. Cynthia, what did it feel like when Cynthia said you're you're it like you're going you're going all the way. I think initially I thought she was crazy. I literally was like this lady's insane but it's but it's very interesting like I'm going to keep going and keep doing this but I think most importantly I um I felt good being there.
I again like I felt like oh this is who I am and this is who I can be and um and it just opened up this whole world of possibility um, that I think was bigger than me being physically like gifted at ballet. So, you walk into the American Ballet Theatre at what age? The very first time I was 16. Wow. Um, when they invited me to come train over the summer with them. Uh, and that's when they at the end of the summer they offered me a contract with their junior company. Um, and my mom said no. No, you can't. You're you have you know, I had I was so immature, you know, it's for my age and had very little experience traveling or you know, never lived on my own or anything like that.
So, um, I turned down the contract. And what was guaranteed that I would be offered a contract the following year. So, I went back home and finished high school and um, officially moved to New York at 17. Wow. Like During that year, what did you do? Continue to practice? Continue to I was in hardcore training. ABT actually was funding my training um, at home because they really wanted me to go um, to return and I mean they were my dream company. It was the it was the company that my teacher was showing me videos of and we didn't really talk about it so much in in that time, but you know, she was very aware and um, and made a lot of decisions based on the fact that I was a Black young Black girl in a very white field and she just thought that American Ballet Theatre of all of you know, the the a handful of top elite ballet companies, um, they're the most culturally diverse.
I wouldn't say racially diverse, but they're very accepting of different types of training. Like most of these big ballet companies, you have to start in their school at 5 years old and you kind of climb the ranks. You can't just come in from like some small school in Southern California to get into the Bolshoi in Russia. You know, it's not how it works and ABT is very different. So, she felt like it was an environment I could thrive in. She was thinking way ahead. She was thinking She was thinking of things that you had no idea to even be thinking about. Mhm.
What did it feel like walking into to that company as a young Black woman? You know, because what Cynthia created for me in the studio, she made me feel like I belonged. Like she created an environment for me to thrive in. Even though I was probably the only Black girl in most of the classes I was in, I felt like I finally found like my identity. And so, I walked in with that, you know, having that experience and and feeling like what Here we go. Like I'm on this journey. Like I didn't I didn't feel different from the other dancers until probably first like official year in the company.
Um What made you feel different from the other dancers when you were in the company for the first year? What did you What did you feel, see? Well, you're no longer in this like protective nurturing bubble. You're now thrust into the professional world amongst other adults. Um and then it became even more apparent. I mean, I was so excited to to be living in such a diverse city in New York City. I mean, diverse in every way in terms of the different communities and cultures and um but yet I'm spending eight hours a day in a studio with only white people. Mhm. I was the only Black woman in the company for a decade.
And it, you know, it it took time, but it it I you know, I started to notice, you know, the microaggressions and and you know, the more I was just exposed to different things, the more I realized like, wow, is this what where I should be? Is this what I should really should be doing? I mean, I really thought about like quitting ballet and um and it took amazing mentors that came into my life and and um that I was able to really um process the things I was going through. What were you going through that made you think like maybe I should I didn't realize that you thought maybe I should should quit during that time. I just felt like why do I why do I have this like feeling of privilege like it could be me that could you know get through all the the nuances and battles of what it is to be a Black woman in in a company like this.
Like why am I any different or any more special than any other Black woman that's attempted this. And you know, you start to feel defeated when you don't have support from within or any you know, there were there were some Black men that would come and go throughout my time that I would bond with but it was still such a different experience for me as a as a Black woman. Men are so needed in ballet that they will take Black men and they will take Brown men and it's a very different battle not that they're not coming up against um you know, adversity but um it was it was very different for a Black woman who represents what ballet is. And that was a decade.
Yes. That was a decade. Yeah. And it and it speaks to what you are doing today with your foundation. And we're going to we're going to talk about that because I think it's it's incredible as you continue to do more and more and so I'm I'm excited about um what it's going to mean for other young women and and older people too. You know, not just younger but older people too. So I know that your body has been been part of the conversation about what it means to be a ballerina and what the what the image is. Can you talk a little bit about that because I like what you said earlier, you said like when there was noise, I didn't hear any of it.
But I know you hear there there's some things you do hear and there's there's there's no way around that. Can you talk a little bit about that because I think um it was a big conversation and it is a big conversation for you and has been. Yeah, it was really interesting to go from being a prodigy and told that I was ideal in every way to be a part of this field. And then I moved to New York and I become a professional and all of a sudden I'm no longer the ideal and I no longer have the body for it.
And it was so ideal? What's the ideal for people that Um right. A small head, a long neck, long arms and hands and fingers, long legs, narrow hips, long feet. I mean, you want to create the the longest line possible um when you're on stage. And so uh you know, the sloping shoulders. I mean, it's very specific that was coined by George Balanchine. You know, the the image of a ballerina has evolved and changed over history. But that image has seemed to stick, you know, whether it's in pop culture, this is what people think of and expect when they see a ballerina. It's so funny. I never like as you're saying it and I'm thinking like long head. I never I never have a small head.
I never even thought of that and a long neck. I don't even But you're right. But as you were saying it and I'm I'm imagining yes, and I can what that image looks like and my teacher would tell me this as a young girl. She would say like she would read the you know, this description and she would say, "You are this." And what I found out when I got older was that she left one part out of it that George Balanchine said which was and also to have the skin the color of a freshly peeled apple. That she left out of that description for me. So I came in thinking like this is what I meant to do. I have all the attributes and everything and then the vocabulary and the way that things were worded started to change and it really took me like deciphering because it was I was like I'm I can't accept these words I'm hearing when they're in such conflict of what they've been throughout my journey.
When I was getting full scholarships from all the big schools to come and train. Like why is this changed all of a sudden? Um and it's like once you're actually put put in the space and given an given access and opportunity, I think that a a lot of people are scared to actually take that risk with me. And so, they start to use language like, you have the wrong skin color, you know, you're too athletic, you know, all of the words that so many Black female athletes specifically, um, you know, is used around them. And I think it's such a it was such a twisted way, you know, within ballet because it's a it's an easy way for them to kind of get out of saying like, well, you just don't have the right skin color.
You don't fit in, you don't belong in this space. Like, we we let you in, we give you we gave you an opportunity, but you're not going to go beyond this. And, um, and it took a lot for me just to decipher that and having people in my corner who had maybe been through similar things, um, to really help me process all of that. And keep pushing forward. And keep pushing forward and speak about my experiences.
Did it take a long time to speak about them? Yes. Why? I don't think I understood the value in in doing that, at least publicly. I mean, I was or even amongst my peers, I was doing it with mentors and of course with the family and, you know, friends. Um, I don't think I understood the impact and what it could what it could do for me personally, even just having that type of relationship. I mean, it started, um, you know, with my artistic director, you know, being really candid with him and coming out of from a place of, you know, wanting him to understand me, wanting to be able to, uh, grow and, um, hear what advice or, you know, tools he could give me.
And it and it changed so much when I started to open up and share what it was to be a Black woman in this space because he clearly had no idea as a white man and never really having, I don't think that he had a Black woman under his artistic direction ever. Um, so it changed so much just in how people even viewed my experience. What did you say to him? What were the words?
What What were the words that that you realized would would break through for him to understand it, too, right? I mean, it literally was just just saying like this is what I I'm on the street every day and I'm surrounded by people who look like me and then I come into this space. Like, can you imagine like what what happens to you emotionally and psychologically when you're in a space where you don't feel supported, you don't see yourself reflected. You know, and even just you know, this it may seem small. It's not small, but you know, putting on pink tights every day, putting on pink pointe shoes and and you know, having those conversations with him as well, you know, that that's supposed to represent your skin color in classical ballet, you know, wearing this European pink color.
Um and you know, what it is to put makeup on my pointe shoes every day. Um because I wanted to create that long line that we're talking about and it does the opposite for people who you know, don't have fair skin. And having these seemingly simple conversations that kind of opened up his mind to so many things that people had never talked to him about. Um and it's you know, it was really about me just kind of like stepping back and trying to remove like my emotions from it. I mean, like the biggest thing was like amongst the women in the company period, whether you were Black or not, was like don't go in there and cry. Because then you won't be taken seriously or you know, whatever it was.
So, I would have so many practice conversations with my husband, who was my boyfriend at the time. And um and really felt like I prepared myself in a lot of ways that so many dancers don't because they don't have the guidance or support. No. And they don't maybe don't have to have those conversations, either, right? And so, you were you were fighting on on many fronts for a very long time.
When you talk about the women and the mentors that believed in you, how important are they? I mean, do they are they do they kind of always ride along with you as you as you go through the course of the days or there's a big performance or there's a a group of people you're speaking to? Are they always kind of there with you? Oh, yeah. Um I've been so fortunate to have amazing women in particular that have just been there for me. And then I think because those initial, you know, relationships, like even with Cynthia, um that opened me up to understanding what it means to um accept support and guidance because it's hard for a lot of of a lot of people, especially young people.
You know, um it's like a scary thing to let people in or you feel like you can do it on your own and and so I've had incredible women like I I know for a fact I wouldn't be in the position that I'm in. I wouldn't have had the career that I've had. I would not have become a principal dancer if I didn't have those people in my life, whether they were actually there giving me advice or I could just see them and see myself through them. Um And that's why I know why it's so important for me to speak up and have a voice. Um And you to be that person to somebody else that they always know they can reach their arm out to.
Right. Is Cynthia still with us? Yes. She is. Do you talk to her much in my life? Good. I love I love to hear that. I wasn't sure, but I I wanted to know. I wanted to make sure. Let's talk about how you went from the stage and ballet and something not everybody may get to experience, but hopefully does at some point in their lives somehow, and then really moved everything into mainstream. And I think there's there's one in particular stands out to me as Prince.
Can you talk about that experience and and and what that was and how it went from being on a stage for ballet to Prince? So Prince approached me. I must have been 26, 26 or or 27. When you were 26, okay. About that age and um I was a little confused as to like why he was calling. Um and you know, after having a conversation, he kind of shared that he'd followed my career and um and he wanted me to be in a music video of his. He's like, "I've been trying to reach you for a year." And I guess AT&T never gave me the message. I don't know. I don't know what happened there. That's a little blurry. Um and he said I I made this music video with another dancer and it's done.
It's been edited and I'm still not happy. Like it has to be you. And I was like, "Okay." I happen to be in an off-season for ABT. I flew out like a day later to LA and it was the first time we met like there on the set. And and then it just started this incredible, you know, relationship and I ended up touring with him on and off for many years.
But I think that the initial thought really was what's the point of doing this? Like what what is this really going to to do and and you know, and to sit with that and you know, we had conversations with you know, about it as well. But just like how many people it could reach that might not otherwise come into a theater that the ballet is being performed in or feel like that's a community that they belong in, a world they belong in. And you know, throughout my career after having had that, you know, I think we were worked together for like 5 years. Um, so amazing just to meet so many people that would be at the stage door at Lincoln Center, at the Metropolitan Opera House, and say, "Well, I'm like, I come to the ballet, you know, now all the time because I saw you perform with Prince, you know, in France or at Madison Square Garden or, you know, wherever it was."
And that they are now ballet fans. And it was like, "That's that was the point of it." That's the why. Yeah. Brought people who would maybe never be thinking about that right to the right to the front door Yeah. Of arts. Yeah. That's amazing. That's really amazing. Okay, I have so many questions for you. I feel like I'm just going to sit here all day with you. I'm sorry. I do want you to tell me the story of Firebird because I think and what Firebird is for people that might not know and what it what it did to your, you know, what it did in your career. What it meant to your career. So this was like right after I kind of wrapped up that time working with Prince.
So in your late 20s? Yeah. And um I I think I was 29 at the time, which is on the late side in a ballerina's career um to not have already been promoted to principal dancer. So I was a soloist at the time. What's the average age normal age that would that would usually happen for principal? You join a company, there's the corps de ballet that is the large group of dancers that frame the lead dancers in the center. And then there was a soloist who are featured and then the principal dancers who are the leads in in the ballet. Um and I would say when you join a company, they pretty much know what your trajectory is going to be. Like you may have a couple of years to like for them to really get a sense of like what your potential is.
But they pretty much know. I mean it it's it's very unlikely that you'd be in the corps de ballet for like 15 years and they're like, "Ah, you're going to be a principal." Like that doesn't really happen. Like they know you and they know where it's coming when you come in. Exactly. At least a few years in. So I would say like early 20s, early to mid 20s you would be a principal dancer. That that's like common if you have that trajectory. And I was 29 and I was still a soloist and I had not given up on that dream um because I knew that my path had already been so unlikely and you know did I didn't fit the mold in any way. So I was like never going to um you know Keep going by the numbers.
Exactly. Exactly. And so at 29 I newer choreographer had come into American Ballet Theatre and become like the the resident choreographer, um Alexei Ratmansky. And he was really good about not just listening to the artistic staff which often times will come to a choreographer and say, "These are the dancers you should work with. These are the dancers you should be watching." And he was like, "No, I'm going to go look at all the dancers and see who I'm drawn to and who I think would fit for whatever roles." And so he cast me as the lead, which I had never been cast as the lead in a classical work before. I'd done a lot of more modern contemporary works, which is common with Black and Brown dancers that they might be put into more of the modern, grounded, earthy roles rather than these ethereal classical roles.
And can you what's a what's a classical role? So Juliet Okay. In Romeo and Juliet or the the white swan in Swan Lake Okay. Giselle in Giselle Um and so this was the first first time that I had ever been you know really taken seriously in the classical repertoire. And um the first time that I was due to perform in New York City my the poster was like you know on the front of the Metropolitan Opera House and it was such a big deal to see a Black ballerina in that in that position. Um and then that first performance in New York City at the Met um it was a sold out show and it was full of Black people. I mean it was shocking for everyone.
I mean myself included. It was like this I mean we'd never seen that in the classical ballet audience. I mean I even had to you? Did you did you did you absorb that pressure did you feel a pressure did you go no No it was like This is It was like family. It was I mean I had this this um woman who who worked as like she cleaned the Met for like I don't know 50 years and she was this old Russian woman and she was like is that your family out there? And I was like well I don't have 3,000 family members but I'm sure we're all related. It feels like community and family and it was just like really I that's what I felt you know and it was like the people felt maybe for the first time a lot of them like um oh I belong now.
I can see myself reflected. I want to bring my children because this you know it was changing it changing the culture you know and at the same time I was dealing with an injury and I ended up performing that night. I didn't know what it at the time, but I had six stress fractures in my tibia, and I would pull out of the season following that evening's performance. Um and would end up getting a plate in my leg, and I was out for a year after like the highest career, you know, moment. Um, but I knew that I had proved myself on the stage that night, and I kind of just had to let it go and do the work that I could, you know, at home and internal work, and just kind of stay focused on getting back to the stage, even though I was told by over 10 doctors I would never dance again.
And I found the one that did the surgery that got me back on stage, and that role didn't only change you know, I think how the company saw me and and what what I was capable of classically, but the investment from my community and people that were willing to invest in ballet that I think have often kind of been turned away, or just like this isn't for them. They don't see themselves. Like this isn't a community that they're a part of. And it changed a lot of that. What was it like to walk into I live right behind the Met and I and I so I walk past my walk every day. What was it like and I know what the size of those posters I know what that looks like.
What was it like to walk in there every day and just look up and see that? I mean I just, I don't many of us cannot ever imagine that that feeling, but especially what you did to get there, and thinking that, "Oh gosh, I'm this age, and I don't know," and that's not usually the time. What was it like for you? It was so overwhelming. I think because I just I didn't feel like it was me that I was seeing. Like it it just felt like this symbol of so many incredible women that have come before me that didn't even get a chance to step on that stage because of the color of their skin.
So it was it was so emotional in that way, you know? Raven Wilkinson, who a mentor of mine who was, you know, there that night watching me perform, but I thought of her, you know, I I she was an incredibly incredibly gifted ballerina and she danced in an in an elite company in the 1950s. She was the only Black woman to ever dance in the company and she ended up leaving because she her life was being threatened by the KKK and she ended up moving to Europe. Um but I thought of her because she wasn't allowed to perform on the Metropolitan Opera House stage and like what it meant, you know, for the next generation and even I think healing for a lot of Black and Brown dancers who weren't given that opportunity.
Never there. What was it like the moment that you found out you had been promoted to principal? What What was that? Um How did it happen? Was it a call? Did they call you in? I don't know. I can't even I can't even imagine. I've only been in the seats. Um So I had gone through a whole season of getting a lot of opportunities. So once I came back from that injury, uh I mean it took maybe a year, um but they started to give me more opportunity to perform the leading classical roles and so I really felt content with where I was. I was like, "Listen, I'm 32. I don't know if this is ever going to happen for me, but I'm getting to to to do these roles and this is what it's for.
I'm being seen by a community that never thought they would see themselves on a stage like this. So it I felt very like complete and content and fulfilled. And uh so there was a company meeting called which happens towards the end of every season. You're preparing to go on tours. There's all the things that we have to talk about. And it was there. I was sitting on the floor and the artistic director turned to me and and he just said, "Misty, take a bow." And everyone knew what that meant and and it was really amazing just because I was surrounded by so many people that had been on the journey with me and knew the battles and the struggles and the fight. It was amazing, but it also was like I have a performance tonight.
I've still got so much more work to do. Like I think it took me a year to really process. Wow. That it was me it was happening to. Yeah. Do you feel like you were on the outside kind of looking in? Absolutely. It which was exciting. It was like, "Oh my God, like we did this. Like we all did this." Yeah. You're like, "Oh, it's me." Right. And then it took like a year when I'm like thrust onto the stage to Swan Lake and there's like some, you know, so many eyeballs and I'm like, "Oh God, I have to do this." Right. Here we go. Now the real work begins, you know. That's what this means.
That's what the It's a How old are you then? 32? I was 32 when I was promoted. Promoted. Yes. Which again is like ancient for a woman to to reach those heights. Um yeah, that late in the game. Well, nothing that you do, Misty, surprises me. Nothing you do. So, let's talk a little bit about motherhood because that came into the picture. Um how are you? How how is your son? Amazing. And it's my favorite I don't want to call it a job. It's my favorite thing to do in life. That I always knew I would. I didn't know what it would look like. I mean, coming from a big family, I always wanted a lot of children and I love having as many siblings as I do and I think that's the best thing my mom gave each of us was each other.
And so, I knew I was going to have a family. I just didn't know what that would look like. And it's really hard. I mean, you know, as a working woman, as an athlete, when do you stop? When do you, you know, take that time for yourself? And I know and it sounds so terrible. I just knew that if I were to have had a child at any other point in my career, I would not be where I am today. I wouldn't have been taken seriously. I would have had to step away. Like I know now being a mother, I wouldn't have wanted to put so much focus on my performance career. I knew that I would have wanted to give more time and and be at home and have more of a flexible schedule.
So, um the pandemic was really good for me. It was, you know, there was It was so difficult in so many ways and for so many people and to be a performer, but it gave me that time to step back and really reassess everything that I was doing. It's like you You're on that hamster wheel and it's like I hadn't stopped since I was 13 years old. And different things in your life. So many different places and ways. So, you you did that during the pandemic and decided that was the that was the what you wanted to do. You wanted to be a mother then. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a big baby boom time for the ballet community because we were all away from the stage and it was like, "This is our one chance.
Let's go. We got to do it. We got to get it in." Um but I knew the year before leading into the pandemic, there was a shift that happened um where I felt like my time on the stage didn't feel as valuable to me or as impactful as what I could be doing off the stage. And did that include? Motherhood? It Motherhood, yes. It was definitely a part of it, but um it was like, "How could I How can I show up in spaces where I have a real voice and a real seat at the table?" And um you know, starting my foundation and I just felt like I did all that I could do. I'm sure other people would say it differently, but I really felt like I did everything I could do on the stage, and I didn't feel that same fire and desire to be out there.
And that I could be using my time doing other things to further the the ballet world and my mission within it. And uh, you know, the first board that I joined was The Shed, and it was during the pandemic, which is an incredible institution here in New York City. And then I would eventually join Lincoln Center's board, and I'm on American Ballet Theatre's board and other boards coming. And to be able to be in that space as a Black woman and as an artist, and have a voice and have a seat at the table, I think is the real institutional impact that I can have within the arts. And exactly what is needed way overdue beyond overdue.
Do you feel there are shifts happening in places that you couldn't have fathom it when you were standing on that stage for those 10 years? Yes, absolutely. Um there was a huge huge growth for the ballet community during the pandemic that I as much I mean I wouldn't be doing this work if I didn't have hope. But I didn't I didn't imagine I would see it in my lifetime, some of the shifts that were made and the conversations that were being had internally that weren't just... I mean, I was always having the conversations, and you know, ABT would somewhat support that and like, "Oh great, you can go talk about that," but then there wasn't real internal work being done. Something that happened, something that have the follow-up right the follow-up you could have the conversations out out there in front of a community This looks great that we have this Black dancer and she's representing this company but then there was no real work that was being done.
It was like But that's not enough. It's not enough. And during the pandemic I there was a real shift and you know even other institutions calling on me and asking to have like real conversations these aren't public conversations and and being heard for the first time. Um, I mean, we talked about already, just you know, the pointe shoes. But to see it had been, I think, 6 years that I took off from the stage before I would have my farewell performance of last October, and was the very first time that I got to perform on stage wearing pointe shoes that were made in my skin color, like by a brand, by a pointe shoe brand. Um it's really incredible but also sad. It was like my very last performance of my 25 year at ABT and that was the first time that a company had made a pointe shoe in my skin color but that's progress.
And it won't be the last time for somebody else. Mhm. Is that your hope? That is I know it. Good. It is it is sad and it when you had that conversation with the artistic director early on about that, was there would they would they have been willing to do that then? Obviously not. No, it's it took so much more time to really, I mean, and I was a part of the conversation with that same artistic director during the pandemic about how do we approach allowing, you know, people to wear tights in skin color, in their skin color, and pointe shoes in their skin color.
And what does that mean? And, and every company is different and has their own have their own like, you know, ideas and and rules, and we kind of came to this understanding that if you're portraying a human, then you should be wearing tights that are in your skin color. So, it's a little bit different if maybe you're a swan and it's like the, you know, whatever the costume may be. Um, so, but I mean to be able to be a part of that conversation and have them really consider it and see the change like American Ballet Theatre is doing that now. Other ballet companies are doing it. It's really incredible. It's really incredible. You're really incredible. Thank you. My friend, you're really incredible.
What do you hope to see being on the board with ABT now? Like go fast forward, you know, it's always so hard. We could never have known where we were 6 years ago. Where are we 5 and 10 years? What do you hope to see to the next Misty or the next uh young woman or man walk walks onto that stage? Yeah. I hope that they feel safe to be able to have important conversations or maybe not even have to have those conversations and to be seen and to be heard and to feel supported and to be treated equally. To be given the same access as everyone else. I want to go to your the um the final performance, but first I'm going to ask you something because a lot of elite athletes don't talk about things that are going on with them.
You recently spoke out about perimenopause. You know I'm not going to let you leave this studio without a question. You know that was coming. Why was it important for you to talk about and thank you? My body is my everything. It's my instrument. It's what has gotten me through this life thus far. And you know, being a mother and I'm, and I've, I'm so proud of what it's done and given to me and I've also always just been very transparent and up front and honest about what it's going through and those changes as an as an athlete and as a woman, and what that does to you and, and thinking about myself as a dancer at this stage in my life. You know, I've had so many close friends in my life that have just preached to me about And and I, you know, would listen Yeah.
But was like, is it really happening for you now? And just kind of maybe doubted you know because the symptoms can range, you know, it's it can feel so vast and so broad. Um and I I never really like got it. Like I knew like oh clearly this is happening to women but but is it because it's such a big part of the conversation that women are feeling like it's happening to them and maybe it is, maybe it isn't, who knows. And so I guess I was really skeptical until it hit me. Were you in denial? What hit you? Were you in denial? Um I think because I guess a lot of the symptoms that you hear um it just feels like very trope-y to me.
It's like oh you're going to get a hot flash and you're going to you know, whatever it may be and and I was like that does like I don't connect with that at all. And then That's not me. It's not me. And then um I felt like this really crazy shift and I know my body so well Mhm. And I started to feel this like incredible sensitivity in my skin. Like actual sensitivity in my skin, Um you know, feeling like not at all, you know, sad or depressed, but incredibly emotional. Like I couldn't I remember walking my husband and I walking our son to school and I just started crying out of nowhere and I was like, "I'm not sad." And it just like crazy.
I'm like, "I'm not sad." And you know, like people I'm like, "Do you feel depressed?" I'm like, "No, I don't feel depressed. I just have to let this out." And um and in a sense almost feeling like very connected to myself and um feeling like these like bouts of exhaustion that would just like come over me and then we go away. Yeah. And then it became really real and I just felt like it was important to share that like not all symptoms look the same.
Everyone's going through different things and it doesn't have to, you know, look the same and um and it was I think beautiful to kind of like embrace that this is happening and um and now what? And now what is right. That's what we're always working on here. The and now what? What? Well, thank you for that because I don't I I think that it's for anybody I think it's very hard to admit, but also somebody that your body and being an elite athlete like that for such a, you know, your whole life is you're very aware of it. So it really means something when you when you say something about it and speak up about it. Tell me the order of of your performances.
You did the Oscars performance and you did what was it called your final performance, but you said that's not a retirement, right? Yeah, not a retirement. I had my farewell performance first. So that was in October of 2025. Um immediately following that I was in severe pain and I ended up having a hip surgery at the end of December of 2025. I had hip replacement, a full hip replacement. And um, then was it March I think when the Oscars happened. So it's 3 months after my my hip replacement.
How did you How did you do that? What What was that? Love you. Sheer will. You just said that's what I'm doing. Um, yeah. I mean, Ryan Coogler and his team called and and it wasn't like, "Oh, you know, we want you to come on stage and do this performance." It was like, "We know what you just went through." And um, kind of sharing what I meant in the process of creating the film Sinners. Mhm. And the amazing scene that was recreating we recreated at the Oscars that I performed in. Um, and that the the ballerina character in the film was really modeled after me and inspired by me and wearing a red leotard inspired by Firebird. And he just kind of shared all of this with me and he was like, "It would be a dream to have you just stand on the stage.
Like, I'm not expecting anything of you." Wow. Um, it would be meaningful to have you there with with the other artists. And I was like, "Are you crazy? I'm not getting out there and not doing anything, moving my arms around." And so I was like, "What am I going to do?" So I showed up like 3 days before with my pointe shoes and I hadn't had them on since October. And um, I went into the studio and I was like, "Let's see what happens." And that was kind of we just built from there.
Like, what what can I do? It was the first time I was really trying anything physical, really. How many days before the Oscars? Three. I think it was 3 days before. I just went in and and um, and did what I could. And it was it was just such a beautiful performance to be a part of, you know, and and of course for such a meaningful night for um, Michael B. Jordan and for the film. And uh, it was it was incredible. Uh, uh, it's a moment. But you But you saying this is what I'm going to do, that's been the pattern throughout your entire life.
When we If can we go back for just a minute of what it took for the the final performance to get your body to where it needed to be because where where where had you been? Sorry. We got to go back just real fast. What did it take to lead up to that? Yeah. So, I my last performance prior to the the Oscars prior to my my 20 October 2025 performance, my farewell performance was at the end of 2019. That was the last time I was on the stage performing. So, I had been off. Like, I really was not doing anything. And uh it was like starting over, you know. Of course, you the muscle memory comes back, but you've your muscles have completely atrophied.
You no longer have the strength, uh the flexibility, all of it. I mean, it took me a year of training. And I had still was nowhere near what I was prior to leaving the stage when I did that farewell performance. And I curated the program to complement not knowing that I wasn't going to be that, you know, I don't know how old I was when I left the stage, you know, 38 or something. Um you know, and coming back at 43. And um it was grueling. Uh but I also was really patient with myself and just and I feel like I have throughout my career like I've accepted like every day I'm like in a new body. We're constantly evolving and changing and um your in your balance is different from day to day.
And so, it was just like this is where I'm at. Now, you know, what do I what do I do with this? And what can I do to make the most out of it? What was it like when that curtain came down for you? What was that feeling inside your body? Thank God. I thought you're going to say so emotional. It was It I didn't feel emotional like as I was performing really. I was in a lot of pain from my hip by the time that like the you know, the curtain came down. I was just like, "Ugh, God, that's over. Thank God." You know, once people started to come out onto the stage and bring me flowers and from like all walks of my life and journey and career, that's when it was like I you know, it was so overwhelmingly emotional.
Um, you know, having my like best friends that I've like grown up with, and um, Debbie Allen on the stage, and my husband and my son and my coaches and you know, that have been with me throughout my entire journey, you know, um, Cynthia Bradley, my teacher, like it was really beautiful to have that um community. You know, so many dancers from the Black community that, you know, have been supportive of me throughout my career. Uh it was incredible and it wasn't something I knew I wanted or needed. I actually said no for 5 years. And um was kind of forced into doing it by mentors of mine. I mean, initially by the company. They were like, "No, no, no, you got to come back."
And I was like, "I really don't want to." Is it because they felt like you needed that or they needed that or what do you think it needed that. Yeah. To kind of wrap up, like people weren't confused, like what happened to her? Where'd she go? Um I felt like I was like, "I'm good." Like I made that decision in 2019 that I was like done. Are you glad you did it? I'm so glad I did it. It was having the my mentors that were like, "Girl, you got to wrap this up. You got to put a bow on it. Like just trust us. Like even if it's not what you feel is going to be for you personally, think about all the people who have invested in you, the community.
Like they deserve to have some kind of final Right. Something from your career at ABT. This doesn't mean it's over. And I'm like, "Yes." I didn't realize you said no to it for so long. I did. I didn't realize that. Well, I'm glad somebody broke you and said like, "No, you're doing this." It was Darren Walker and Susan Fales-Hill. You know, the the names just roll They rolled me. They were like, "Girl, it's not going to They're not going to be waiting for much longer. It's going to be this year. This year, you got to do it now." Let's talk about what you're building now. Misty Copeland Foundation and you have you have a couple of different projects.
Can we talk a little bit about them? Can we talk about the foundation first and in who that will work toward and who you who you are working with right now? So the foundation really came out of um my own personal experiences. Like I started out uh at a free ballet class at the Boys & Girls Club um through this program that was being created to find more diverse students um and then to give more formal training to. And so you know when I talk about my experience like it's so much bigger than the career that I've had. Like, what it's actually given me like having an arts education, a dance education the tools and the skills that it's given me to be, like, a better human being and to navigate in the world and through different spaces, that, to me is, the the biggest value.
And so, it's like, how do you I recreate this and give back to communities that don't have the access and opportunity? So um it was really about looking at communities that are here near me that need it and so we really um focused in on the Bronx and in and Harlem. So now we're serving over almost 800 children um in those communities and it's um it's a free after school ballet class and it's ages 5 to 12. We've created our own framework you know it another word we use for curriculum because it's constantly evolving and we're always listening to the communities that we're serving and the children who are in front of us. It's not a traditional ballet class. It's really the the the program is called BE BOLD, so it stands for Ballet Explorations.
Ballet Offers Leadership Development. So it's bigger again than than you know going in there and learning pliés. It's about developing these skills that they can take outside of of the class and into other areas of their life. Um we've also started a program called Be Bolder that's for older adults 50 and over in those same communities that need community that um for the most part probably are not moving their body, do not have access to healthy foods. And so we wanted to be able to kind of embrace the community as a whole and we're not quite ready to um scale and move into other boroughs or other communities. Though we get so many calls and it's so exciting to eventually be able to, um, grow, uh, you know, in the places that we are, but we really want to commit to these communities and let them know that, like, we're we are here to stay; and it's about changing how you perceive the culture of dance and ballet and these Black and Brown communities.
I love that it's for older adults, too. I'm seeing, you know, more and more of that. My dad's 86, I talk about him a lot. But he uh took a pottery class and and uh because a either was a donation that was done to bring older, you know, bring the arts to have classes for older people in the arts and I was like Oh my gosh. That's just it's just incredible to start seeing that, you know, and um cuz it's so important that we don't say, "Okay, after 50, That's it. Thanks for everything. Thanks for everything.
Can we talk about your production company, too? Yes. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about your production company and and what what you can tell us. So my best friend, Leyla Fayyaz, she I met her through American Ballet Theatre starting out as a as a classical dancer, and then she left the company, went back to school for film and media, and we ended up coming back together, um, and creating this production company, really with having this shared and mutual I don't know, I guess kind of like we know that these story there's so many more stories to tell, and dance films and the way it's depicted can be done in a more authentic way. Okay. There are so many more layers and um incredible things about about artists and and dance artists that we haven't even skimmed the surface of in the films that we know.
And so it was really being able to bring an authentic lens through our experiences and and then that's kind of grown into not just film and television and and telling stories about dance, but movement in general and things that move us as women and women of color. We have an incredible project that we're super excited about that's in development, a feature film that's been picked up by Amazon. Um and it's a book called Variation that's written by Rebecca Yarros. And um with Higher Ground, which is the Obamas' production company, we've come together. And we are in development right now writing it. So that's a a big project of ours and we have a lot of smaller ones. We've done short films. We're working on an animated um series right now.
We're in talks um with the Public Theater um about turning one of my books into a theatrical production for children. So there's so many different ways that I want to be able to bring dance and ballet and storytelling um in different mediums. I want to ask you one question because I think there's so many women that are listening and I and you're I think you're just so such as the um ideal to answer this question. We talk about next chapters a lot and they're really scary and it doesn't matter if you know where you are, if you're on a stage or you've been at home or you've been at school or you been at whatever it is. What advice do you have to women who are listening, you know, a lot of you know, you said you can kind of push out the noise, but not all of us it's not always that easy depending on where you are.
Do you have advice for people that say like I I have a next chapter in me and I'm told I'm too old or I'm told that you know, my time you know, it's I'm beyond my prime. Yeah. You don't believe that. Right. Absolutely not. I mean, I think I'm proof that like it's never too late for so many things. Um and I think it's really about listening to yourself, your instincts and surrounding yourself with people who are going to support you um and that believe in you who also challenge you and be keep it real. And I feel like that's what I've done throughout my journey and it's really served me well. Um, but yeah, I think listening to my instincts has been like one of my biggest superpowers.
Yeah. You know, not being afraid to step into something that's scary and and the unknown. Like I love a challenge. I mean, I often go into that challenge and I'm like, "Why did I do this?" And then I come out on the other side and like feel like a whole new person like that's grown so much. And so I think continue challenging yourself and surround yourself with with support. What's next for you? Um, applying for schools with my child.
It's like you're going back to school? Applying for schools. Okay. My son. I mean, he's such a, you know, a big part of, you know, this chapter in my life, and I love it so much, and it challenges me in so many ways. And, and, you know, I'm it's just like I feel like I'm constantly, literally from day to day, like evolving. Thinking about him and just like the psychology and like it's just it's really wild to see a little person grow and develop right in front of your eyes and just think like how do I not mess him up? And do the best that I can.
And like so me and my husband are just constantly like reevaluating from day to day, okay, what are we going to do differently? And it's it's hard and it's exhausting, but it's so much fun. And like that's a just a big part of my life that I love so much. And he he's doing ballet? In ballet? He did it for 2 years. Okay. And um, he likes to be on stage. He wants that we we got him to stick it out last year in ballet class because we said, "Well, you can't perform unless you go to class." And he was like, "Okay, then I'll I'll go to class." And now it's not working. So we're like, "We're not going to force him to do it."
But he's doing it all. He's, you know, he's playing violin and he's swimming and he's doing Taekwondo and now he's about to start chess. I mean, that's pretty amazing. I haven't done any of those things. Misty, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Time. I'm so happy to be here. Me, too. Thank you. Thank you.
