Today's episode is for the woman who has been everything to everyone and finally asking, "What about me?" You've been taking one for the team for decades. I'm talking to psychotherapist, author, and boundary queen, Terry Cole. Terry has spent decades helping women break free from people pleasing, perfectionism, and high functioning codependency. You're probably overfunctioning or overgiving, over feeling. We were all indoctrinated into the cult of nice.
Terry is here to teach us how to recognize our own resentment as a signpost. How to stop abandoning ourselves in relationships and how to reclaim our voices, especially in midlife. As your hormones are getting less, your tolerance for is getting less. We get so sick and tired of being sick and tired. This is not self-help, it's self- advocacy.
Before you take on another thing this year or the rest of your life, you're going to ask two questions. So, let's get started. Terry, it's good to see you. You too. I I brought all this together just so I could have more time with you, my friend.
I love it. Thank you. We've known each other a long time. We've talked about a lot of different things over the course of the years, but for people that are meeting you for the first time, I want to make sure they know everywhere to go to find you. But first of all, where you came from, because you have a really interesting story.
You did a pivot before we were talking about pivots. I guess I did. I was a talent agent negotiating contracts for supermodels and celebrities. That was the last four years of my career. I'd done other things before before I became a psychotherapist.
And I had gotten to a point in my own therapy, part of what motivated me was my experience in therapy. I just couldn't believe it. I was like, "Wait a minute. I could just learn about myself and change my life. Amazing.
Why isn't everyone doing this?" Like, I felt like it was the worst kept secret. I was like, "Do people know what happens in therapy and what you can do with your life?" And so even though I was very ambitious and so I was literally leaping up the Hollywood entertainment ladder, Hollywood New York both, I was not, you know, I was getting less and less fulfilled in that space. And then by the end, I just couldn't deny that I didn't give a crap about the movie deal or the Pantene deal. And that all I cared about was the mental health of my clients. I was endlessly getting people into drug treatment clinics, eating disorder clinics, therapy.
Like so you you were a therapist while you were while you were an agent. Definitely. I always had the heart of a therapist, I think. And I finally even though it's funny when you leave a lucrative career that looks very fancy. Not that you would know anything about that.
People are like PS what is wrong with you? Like I remember telling my father I was like oh I'm quitting my fancy ass job running a talent agency and I'm going to go to NYU and get my masters to become a therapist. He was like why? And literally said, "Sounds weird." Is that what he said? Yeah.
Literally, those were his words. I was like, "Thank you for that vote of confidence." No, so that's good. Well, who the hell was asking him? I was already in my 30s and I didn't need anything from him. I I I said to him, "Well, all I need from you is your support because I don't need anything else because I'm paying for it myself." So, and of course, he he eventually got on board.
But a lot of people were like, "Why?" Sure. And I just wasn't fulfilled anymore. And I knew I was like, making Naomi Campbell richer can't be my dharma. Like, it must be something else. No offense to Naomi Campbell, but it just can't be the thing that I'm put on earth to do.
And the first time I took a non metriculating course at NYU, before I pulled the trigger, I like took a few courses in abnormal what course? Non metriculating meaning, oh, nonmetric. I don't even know that word. Oh, go ahead. Yes.
That means you're you're not enrolled. Yes. But I I took an abnormal sight course and I just the second the the professor started talking. I was like, "Oh, yeah. This is exactly where I'm supposed to be." I was so excited.
And that was 27 years ago and I'm still so excited. I know. I know you are. And you know, you've written so many books now, more more to come, a lot to say. And everything rel what I love about you is everything relates to what we're doing dayto-day.
It doesn't have to be that this is a long-term even though I know you do that but it really is day-to-day advice. So I want to talk about some of it because I wanted to bring you in. I think that when women hit this pmenopause obviously menopause and midlife this is a whole other new phase and very very different and oftentimes hit a wall. I I certainly did hit a wall the now what what's next wall. But why do women during this time in particular do that?
Well, part of it is as your hormones are getting less, your tolerance for is getting less. You're you're you hit a wall because we're just we get so sick and tired of being sick and tired. And when you don't have all this estrogen to buffer your mood to be flowing some dopamine to you, you're like, literally, no, stop chewing. You're annoying. Like, it's amazing the things that, now I'm not saying chewing is something we tolerate, but that's just an example of the things that my therapy clients would complain about to me.
Their partners or whoever was around them. Yes. Being how like everything becomes so irritating. And so I think that it's a combination of taking one for the team, especially if you're a high functioning codependent. You've been taking one for the team for decades.
Yes. And there's a part of I think you know I call it the chickens coming home to roost because the pattern that I've seen is over and over again women early 50s who are just like no. And they story. And one thing that I will anybody listening who's you're identifying with this, I always have my clients do an inventory and you just answer the question, what am I tolerating? And then we're going to do it in every area of your life.
And it could be small things like in your house. Let's just say in your office there's like a light that is really bright and you don't like it. Oh wow. You go very granular. Yeah, we're going to go and go change that bulb if it's bothering you.
We can prioritize our own preferences, but a lot of times we don't. So, that's one of the things that I always encourage my clients to do that make the small changes that you can make because that is very soothing to the nervous system as well. But then it could also be as big as I had one of my clients during the pandemic. You know how everyone was drinking alcoholically during the pandemic and I knew she wasn't an alcoholic because she was a long term but she was stressing and she was like I don't want to drink during the week you know hold me accountable I was like okay so then she kept failing not drinking during the week and then I was like ah there's definitely more to this than this so let's see what it is and I asked her what I call the secondary gain questions and I just asked her okay just without thinking about it just answer this what do you get to not face not feel and not experience by drinking three or four big girl glasses of wine a night. And she immediately said that my marriage is over.
Wow. Wow. But those questions if you're stuck anywhere in your life, right? Because our brains make sense. We make sense.
So you secondary gain is not primary gain. Go to the gym because you want to be physically well. Sure. Secondary gain is the hidden benefit that we get. And so what was the hidden benefit that she was getting was numbing her feelings of urgency towards her situation in her marriage.
How powerful is that? But and she knew instantly. She knew instantly. Yeah. You brought up high functioning codependent.
And you know your book is too much a guide to breaking the cycle of high functioning codependency. Let's let's define that for people that don't understand or they'll probably they'll understand as soon as they hear the definition. But what a high functioning codependent is. It is you or you. Yeah.
Being overly invested in or or me being overly invested in the feeling states, the outcomes, the circumstances, the situations, the finances, the careers, all the things of the people in our lives to the detriment of our own internal peace. Yeah. Or to the detriment of our financial well-being or psychological or emotional well-being. So what this means and it's important to make this distinction because all of us are lovers and sisters and friends and mothers and cousins and aunties and obviously the people we love we want them to be happy but this is not that this takes it five steps further where instead of just wanting you to be happy to I feel responsible for your happiness. So give me an example of that.
So what what do you do as a result of feeling responsible versus just wanting me to be happy? I try to change it. So I it is an being a high functioning codependent most of the time is an overt or covert bid or attempt to control someone else's outcome. So you come to me and you're upset about something. If I'm high functioning codependent, I want to fix your upset.
If I'm in recovery from being a high functioning codependent, I have the bandwidth to actually be in the foxhole with you to say, I I don't have the answer, but I love you. I'm here. Let me know how I can best support you, which is different. The fixing is such a huge part of being a high functioning codependent. And it's funny, you know, on the interweb, out here in these internet streets, people love to, you know, be like, "Maybe I'm just nice." You ever think of that?
I'm like, dude, if you can't not do it Yeah. And not you being nice. It's a compulsion, right? And but I know I know what that feeling is. I know what that comp as you were saying it, I was thinking like I call my dad every night and I I tick off a list like is he good?
Is he healthy? Is he this? Is he is he socializing? Is he those are all those I mean I'm very aware I listen you diagnose me, I diagnose me, we diagnose me but but it's not so easy to stop. So what are some of the ways if you have identified yourself as a high functioning codependent y that you have to stop that behavior that you can help yourself.
Let's do behaviors first. Okay. So, I feel like so people if maybe you haven't heard yourself yet, but you're probably gonna So, what are the most common behaviors? Feeling like you have to fix other people's problems. So that's like being an auto advice giver.
Can't stop. And for me, I was the worst. It didn't It would be like not asked but can't Yeah. Not asked but can't stop. It could be my mailman.
It could be my hairdresser. It didn't matter who the hell it was. Why do we do that, though? Because we're controlling. Is it controlling or because we think we we want it's because we just want them to feel better in that moment.
Yes. And because they're not feeling better is making us uncomfortable. So we want our discomfort to stop part of it. Okay. So auto advice giving auto accommodation where you're out in public and like something needs to happen in a public place.
Somebody looks like they're lost. They're looking at a map. Yeah. Who's immediately going over to help them? You are.
You're in a plane and somebody wants to sit together. Who's immediately offering their seat if it could make it easier for them. You are so am I. I mean not anymore but yes. But maybe so auto accommodating I tell the story in in the book about I was at my hair salon where I was today and it was a super busy Saturday and they were doing something to my hair like I had a mask on it so I was laying in the bowl but now it was really busy and now there's getting to be like a line waiting for the sink but I'm like an idiot not doing anything just laying in the sink, right?
Waiting for this thing to be done. So I'm like, I don't have to I should tell them I can move. Like I don't have to be here and I don't want these people. One person's waiting, two people are waiting, three people are waiting. Now I'm having a literal panic attack.
So I raised my because you need a I need you to problem solve and fix. Of course, because don't they see? And I'm afraid that the what if the little assistant is going to get in trouble because people are mad. Like there's a million good reasons to be a control freak. So I raise my hand.
I say, "Hey, I could sit over there." And she was like, "Hi, PS. We do this every Saturday, Terry. Like we're god and I realized when I was done with that I went home this is like 5 years ago and I I I did a video on YouTube and it went viral so many people were like oh my god I do this everywhere I like this is so me and why do we care right so why does it matter that we do that well for my own mental health for my own internal peace what could I have been doing except I was sitting there worrying about some that has nothing to do with me that is not anywhere near my side of the street. I could have been talking to my mom or listening to your podcast or reading a freaking book or resting my brain. Like there's a million things I could have been doing for you.
Yes, for me because the inherent one of the inherent qualities of being an HFC is this self-abandonment because we're always willing to take one for the team. What does it do to us if we're doing that? Because it it's Listen, I know it's exhausting. Mhm. I also know it's very hard to turn off.
It's very hard to turn off. That's why I wrote a whole freaking book about it, my friend. I know. That's what I'm talking about. It's too much.
But really, that's why because it is hard to turn off because we we came by this behavior honestly. Yeah. Because we were raised as good girls because turn that frown around and if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Be nice. Be accommodating.
Be helpful. These were socially sanctioned. So we were all indoctrinated into the cult Yeah. Of nice at the expense of ourselves. So we start at such a disadvantage that thank God for menopause because if you don't figure this out sooner this change in life I feel like really for a lot of people is the jump start to their next life to their new life to what's going to be next for them.
Is that because you you start seeing them take care of themselves, think think about what's going not not necessarily selfish, but thinking about themselves, caring for themselves, and then figuring out purpose or what they want, and then those are those next level pivots. Yes. But here's the thing. It's being selfish, right? That has gotten a bad name.
Sure, it has. Because when you think about it, what you want, what you think, and how you feel, Yeah. Is important. But for you to be healthy, it has to be more important to you than what anyone else wants, thinks, or feels. That includes Ira, that includes your dad, that includes everybody.
And same for me. Now, we can choose to compromise. Of course, we do. We're both married, right? So, so we can choose to be generous.
But what I want for women who are in this compulsive behavior pattern is I want you to have choices. You can still choose to be super generous, but if you're doing it to control the other person's feelings so that you feel better, you're not doing it willingly or with equinimity, right? Right. You're doing it compulsively to control some of the other behavior. Fascinating.
Yeah. Let's go through the rest of the behaviors. Well, anticipatory anxiety. I mean, anticipatory planning, not anxiety. We have that, too.
But planning where you know you're going to be with, let's say, difficult people. So, you make a plan. You make sure you have the booze that they drink. You make sure that Uncle Bobby doesn't sit in your uncle Jimmy because they hate each other. You like we're we are literally puppet mastering rather than having a conversation and being like, if you two idiots can't figure it out, then don't come to Christmas, right?
The uncles who hate each other, whatever. So for us, it's all about twisting ourselves up and lighting ourselves on fire so that other people are comfortable and warm. And you do get to a point where a lot of a lot of times you just don't have the bandwidth to do it anymore. No, it's exhausting. Yes.
Over and underfunctioning is another important aspect to look at. Okay. Another behavior. Another behavior, but it really is a dynamic in relationship. So, I say this sort of tongue and cheek, but it's true that, you know, in my 20s, I could take a perfectly normal boyfriend and turn him into an underfunctioner in two weeks or less because you've done so much for them.
Yes. And because I I got it. I got it. I got it. Yep.
What do they got to do? Yep. You know, and I remember complaining to my mother about this one boyfriend that I was living with and I was like, he doesn't know how to do anything. Because part of the reasons HFC's want to do everything also is that most of us are kind of particular about things, the way things are. If I give it to you, you're not going to either do it fast enough or you're not going to do it right.
Am I wrong? No, of course not. I'm just shutting my eyes hoping it goes away somehow. I can make it stop. Please help.
And I was complaining. I was like, he doesn't know how to brown garlic. He's always burning it and he doesn't know how to vacuum. My mother was like, Terry, your father hasn't never touched a pan in his whole life while he was alive and never touched a vacuum. So, she made a great point, though.
She said, "If you need everything done your way, you'll end up like me doing everything and doing it alone." Wow. Cuz people stop asking. They're like, "Whatever." Like, she's obviously the only one who knows how to do anything, so just let her do it. So, those are the behaviors. How do we get to a place where we once we identify them?
If we can identify because those are very clear behaviors and we see a lot of people doing them and a lot of us know we're doing them. If you haven't gotten to menopause or that didn't stop it. Yeah. What how do you do that? How do you get how do you get started on that road to stopping that behavior or at least being aware of it?
I think the a great first step for anybody listening or watching is doing a resentment inventory. Okay. And you guys, it's so easy. It's a simple tool, but it'll act as a GPS to get you to what relationships you're probably overfunctioning or overgiving or even overfeing in. So, what do we do?
We think of the people in our lives and we think, am I holding on to any resentment in this relationship? And if the answer is yes, then you're going to write down what it is. And if you look at it, I gave an example in the book of like when I lived in the city, my sister and I both lived here, that she would come to my house, use her key, and take my stuff and not tell me. So like I'd be like going on vacation and be like, "Where's that rat?" But I couldn't find it, right? So I had told her a bunch of times.
Then I finally got to a point where I said, "Hey, if you don't stop not telling me, I'm going to take the key back." So you I had to attach like a a consequence. I would write that down as the example of like what I was feeling resentful about before I had the conversation with her. And then I have to go what is my 50%. What did you do to cause that? Well, what what is my half?
Even if my sister was really the offender, my half was I hadn't said anything to her yet right before I did. Okay. So, we have to own because every relationship is 50/50. Even if one person is the biggest jerk on the planet, sometimes your 50% is just staying. Yep.
You know, but but that still keeps it going. So resentment inventory. You write down what it is and then you go, what action step could I take when I'm ready? So don't pressure yourself. You don't have to be ready today.
But we start to visualize and imagine how we could make it be different. So I started thinking, I'm going to have a conversation with her and I'm going to essay I'd like to make a simple request that you don't go to take my trip without asking blah blah blah. Is that hard? Is that hard to do to the resentment inventory is one thing. Going in then acting on it.
Is that difficult for high functioning? It's difficult for anybody which is why people don't do it. Which is why people would rather just ghost you or take a really long time to get back to you or just be like Uhhuh. Yeah. Make it go away somehow.
Yeah. Without me addressing it. But when you address it and then the more you learn how simple it can be to do it. I love this that framework of I'd like to make a simple request which I did not create. That is from nonviolent communication Marshall Rosenberg because the truth is any request actually is simple doesn't mean it's easy doesn't mean they're going to do it but I like that language some people don't but you can write and in all my books I give you tons of scripts and online for any kind of boundaries that you need to create you have to get a script together beforehand you have to get it in your body by saying it in the mirror saying it to a friend because if not sometimes we could get really emotional like the first time you say it, you could just like weirdly spontaneously cry and be like, "Why?
Why did that happen? That doesn't feel good." So, we get it into our bodies and then you have the conversation. So, little by little, what people are doing right now is raising their awareness of where they might need changes. So, resentment inventory is one of the perfect places. Another tool I want to give you.
If you're doing all the things for all the people, which so many women who I know and in my crew and in your crew are, sure, before you take on another thing this year or the rest of your life, you're going to ask two questions. The first one is, can I do I have the bandwidth to take this on without becoming resentful? Okay. Yeah. So major.
So major because you could do it. It's hard to It's very hard though when you think someone's relying on you or you're, you know, a person that can do a lot of things to say no. Yes. Because you feel like you're going to miss out on something or you're going to let somebody down. The whole FOMO is real for sure.
Yep. But the the high capacity, this is what we're talking about. And this is why I even came up with it. I'm going to go back to the second question, don't you worry. But why I even came up with this moniker was that my high functioning clients didn't see themselves in the co the traditional codependent.
So if I would say to them, hey, what you're describing as a codependent pattern, they would immediately go, yeah, no, hello, I'm not dependent on squat, Terry Cole. You know that everyone's dependent on me. I'm making all the money. I'm making all the moves. I'm doing all the emotional labor.
I'm taking care of everyone. And I was like, oh, my clients don't know what codependency is. They think it's something else. And they all thought it was well I'm not enabling an alcoholic. I'm like well I was just going to say that there there was the book codependent no more.
That's what everybody equates it to. They do right but it is incorrect. And I was like you know what codependency needs an upgrade and it needs to be modernized. So this definition is for the modern woman. Some men too.
I've heard from lots of men but really it's the female experience. A that's what I'm an expert at. But this is really happening where we're exhausted. But the irony is the more capable you are, the less codependency looks like codependency. That's exactly right.
That's because you feel like it comes easy. So are codep or high functioning codependence people pleasers or are those completely different? Okay, I'm going to answer the I'm going to add the second question, okay, to that little other tool I gave and then we're going to do that and you'll have to remind me of what that question was. I can do that. I got you.
We said you're asking yourself, do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful? And number two, do I even faking want to do it? Yeah. How much of the time if someone else wants you to do it, you not doing it like just got taken off the table by some by this someone else's reality becomes more important than yours. So I always want us to be thinking, do I even want to do it?
And listen, sometimes we'll still do the effing thing because we are in relationship with people or because we love people or because it's needed to be done or whatever the thing is. But you have to know for yourself that your preference matters. Why is that so hard for us to to u be honest with ourselves about our preference mattering? Because we were sold the bill of goods about being like the cool chick with no needs. Yeah.
Right. And being like you know me, no fuss, no mus. Right. Whatever you guys want to do. You call the myth of having no needs.
Yes. Right. Yes. It's dangerous. Yes.
Because what happens then? You know what doesn't happen? Your needs don't get met because you act like you don't have them. Again, it's it's all of this control because what happens when we have needs, we're vulnerable. And so for high functioning codependents in particular, another one of the traits is hyperindependence.
Yes. Well, what we think is hyperindependence, we No, it is we have hyper independence. Yes. Meaning we don't let anyone do anything for us. Oh, right.
Right. Like even the taxi driver, right? He's like, "I'll get your bag." I was like, "I got it. Get back in." Like, "Why? I can't even let Why can't I even let this guy lift a can?
It makes no sense at all." Yeah. So, I think it's a hard habit to break. I really do. I I just I'm aware of it when when it happens. I think a lot of women are aware of Well, maybe they're not aware of it, but maybe we're we're getting to be aware of it because of you.
But I think it's a hard habit to break. It is. But let's look at what happens when we do break it. Okay? Like what's the motivation?
Cuz some people online sometimes will be like, "Well, I like being this way." Great. Then don't come to me for solutions. If you like being that way, enjoy. PS, you're not going to be able to do it forever, though, right? We go in before we go out because it's not just identifying, it's understanding.
So, in the book, I walk you through your HFC blueprint, which is like looking at, and it's really, it's a relational blueprint. Where did we learn that this is how we're supposed to be in romantic relationships, in work situations, with friends? So, this is an unconscious paradigm that is in our minds, handed down through generation to generation, which has everything to do with the culture you're from, your family system, what you witnessed, the society you're from, socioeconomic status. There's so many things that come together that create this relational blueprint that what I do in the book is I help you figure out what that is. You answer a bunch of questions, very pointed questions, and then we bring all this information up into the main part of the house and open a bunch of windows and turn on a bunch of lights and we're like, "Okay, so this is how it was for my parents or my mother was a peopleleasing overfunctioner, but that isn't the only way to be feminine.
Maybe I can do it differently. Maybe I can choose something different. But there's a lot of loyalty that gets in there. There's so many reasons why we must bring it from the unconscious to the conscious or you're literally never changing it. So the beginning is that you answer those questions understanding why you are the way you are.
And then the first thing that you can change that I think is the easiest to change. If you are an auto advice giver, you're going to be super mindful that instead of doing that, no matter who comes to you, whether they're six or 60, and they come to you with a problem, and they go, let's say you have a little kid who's like, I had a fight with Bobby in school today. Instead of being the parent who says, we don't fight in this family, or whatever, you go, okay, tell me what happened. He you give him the floor to tell you. Then you go, "Okay, now what do you think you should do?" And that's it.
That's not going to be it forever if you're talking to a seven-year-old or a 15year-old or a 17-year-old or even a 60-year-old. But that's definitely the beginning. And if they go, let's say a little kid says, "I think I should go in tomorrow and hit him with a brick." You're not going to agree that that's a good idea, but what did you just learn about your kid? Oo, he's he's got some violent fantasies in his mind or whatever it is. This being an HFC and being a people pleaser and being an auto advice giver, it really negatively impacts the intimacy in our relationships because how so?
Well, what we're doing if I come to you Tim and I say I'm having this problem and if the if that's all I do is tell you I'm having this problem and you go oh my god I have the perfect I have the perfect oncologist, gynecologist, whoever the hell it is like or I've got the perfect book or I know exactly what you should do. What has happened is you've just centered my pain and my problem on you as the solution. Oh yeah. Okay. And what you didn't do was just be able to have the courage to be with me in my painful situation.
Right. People I I don't think if we're looking at what is the biggest flex when it comes to love, it's definitely not fixing other people's problems. No. It's being in the foxhole with them during the dark night of the soul and not say something stupid and annoying that they're not even going to do to make yourself feel better about their situation. Like it's I'm not going to try to fix you.
People as projects so dehumanizing, so painful. And love says tell me more. That's where the intimacy is built. Yes. What what can I how can I best support you right now?
Tell me. That has to be hard for you. Yes. Right. Because you you actually I mean you you've auto advice is probably very second nature and people pay me to auto advice.
Well aside from that aside from that but but seriously like going around the world you probably hear it a lot and and have a tendency to want to do it immediately I do but here's the thing it depends if if I'm in Terry Cole persona mode. Yeah. Of course then then it's fine for me to auto advice because that's what somebody's paying me for. If I'm with my husband and he's talking about something instead of I used to be so bossy. Oh my god.
I couldn't stop telling him what to do. We actually had a situation years ago. He's an artist and he had a rep embezzle like 65 grand. And this is like 15 years ago which was a lot of money. Yes.
And I was losing my all like losing it where I was like we're going to get legal. I can't wait to get her. Like I was so mad, feeling so protective, but you know, obviously in hindsight, not being that helpful to my husband. And finally, when I got it together enough because of my therapist to say, "Hey babe, all right, I'm going to stop with all the legal stuff. How can I actually best support you right now?" And he was like, "you could have faith that I'm going to figure it out." Wow.
My way and in my time, but just have faith that I will. And I was like, I do, and I promise I'm not mentioning again. And of course, he totally handled it like the groovy Pisces that he is. No problems, didn't get legal, didn't spend any money, and still managed to be friends with this person. Wow.
And said you were going to take it and put it on your back and carry it around and hope try to figure out a way to fix it. Yeah. All right. You're the boundary queen. We know that.
You mentioned boundaries before. Why are boundaries so hard to set, especially for women? Because, again, what is our training, right? The cult of nice. So our training says if you put a limit up, you're not being nice.
Right? All the all these people who are, you know, saying I don't want to hurt their feelings. You know, anytime I want you to be mindful, you guys listening, watching, you have this phrase in your mind. I don't want them to think or I don't want them to feel. Just back up and get on your own side of the street because how they feel and what they think is not your side of the street and you trying to control it is you being dysfunctional.
How about we just focus on how you feel and what you think and what you want and most HFC's don't. We can't wait to fix you so I don't have to look at me. Yeah. Right. I can't I I have all the answers.
Am I happy? Who knows? I'm too busy. But maybe, maybe not. But setting putting up those boundaries.
I I think it's really important to drill down like how do you start to do that? Is there are there I know you have methods to do that and techniques, but I want people to walk away with some of the actionables of how to start setting those boundaries. Even if they're little boundaries, how do we start setting those boundaries one by one? The easiest is to stop the auto yes. So for the next seven days, no matter who asks you what, nobody is saying an automatic yes.
We are buying time in every situation. No auto yes. So what do you do? What do you say instead? You say, "Oh my god, thank you so much for thinking of me.
I'm going to have to check with Ira. I'm not sure what we're doing on Thursday." Okay. All right. Or no auto yes. What about I have a 24-hour decision-making policy, so I'm gonna let you know tomorrow at this time.
Oh, that's great. And it could be kind of tongue and cheek. Like I like to use humor, right? Fun. But what we're training people is that we trained them that we will give an auto yes.
We're now going to be training them that we're going to think about it, right? We have a right to give ourselves time. You have the right to say, I don't know if I feel like doing that. I don't know. Because how many times have you said, well, how many times have I how many times have all of us said yes right away.
It comes to that event or day or meeting or time or and you're like, why did I what was I thinking? I I've heard myself say that so many times. What was I thinking about that? Right. Why did I do this?
Why did I do this? Because it's And that's where that resentment grows. Exactly. Which is the worst thing. And that's where the self-abandonment piece comes in.
Right. I want to please you in the short run even though it's super displeasing to me. Yep. In the long run. All right.
How else can you set boundaries? So, no auto yes. No. No auto yes. But then what you're going to do is the reason we not auto yes is that it is so much easier to come back and give an honest, authentic no.
Oh, hey, I checked with Iron. Actually, we have other plans, but hope you guys have a great time. Great. And every when you say no, I'll give you I give you a whole bunch of ways of saying no. Yeah, we need that.
If it's someone that you like, you can start with something sweet, right? If it's true, like, oh, I love that you always think to include me. Thank you. And actually, we're busy, but I hope you guys have so much fun, right? And it feels good.
Yes. And you've not hurt, you don't feel like as a pleaser, you've hurt somebody, right? We can do it in you can always do it with kindness. But not doing it. I think that the thing that is helpful to understand is saying yes when you want to say no is not only not nice, it is straight up misleading and dishonest.
We are literally giving people corrupted data about who we are and what we like. Like we're doing that and then we're like, gee, why am I not satisfied in life? Because nobody knows you. That's why nobody knows who you are and you don't know who you are, right? So you you going back to the how you say no.
There's a million ways once you go back to say no. But what you're going to start to see, which we started on this before, is what's on the other side of recovery? What is your incentive to want to do it? So much more relaxation for your nervous system. Yeah.
So much more expansion, surrendering to what is, respecting other people's right to be sovereign. Because here's the thing. People have a right to succeed and fail. People have a right to thrive and to flail. But if you're an HFC, you don't want anybody flailing in your vicinity.
You're like, "No flailing over here." All right. Right. I'm not into it. And yet, this is part of really being in relationship is being able to allow others to struggle even if it makes you uncomfortable. Really uncomfortable.
Really uncomfortable. Uncomfortable. Let's go back to the the other ways to to talk to somebody. So, no auto. Yes.
I think that's the that's a big one. But let's start with what are the quick steps that people can do. Yeah. So, if you know you need to have a conversation with your father who's a difficult person and he so you're going to you're going to what is the problem? That's step number one, right?
All right. What is the issue? Okay. They're coming to your house without warning. Again, look at all these people intruding.
But they're coming to your house without warning using your key to come in, right? Or something like that. Then you make a decision. When is the optimal time to talk to him? Well, if your father's not a morning person, don't do it in the morning, right?
If you're going to have dinner with him and he's relaxed after dinner, have the conversation then if you want to. You come up with a script, you know, and I give you a million stem starters and all different ways to come up with a script. Hey, Dad, I love spending time with you. As you know, you're my favorite person and I really need you to text me before you come over because I'm not always here and it causes stress for me. What if he gets mad, right?
What what if he's offended? I don't have to call. I don't You can say, "No, Dad. You really do actually, and I see that you're upset, and I love you, but please just respect that boundary or whatever." And a lot of times, the thing is we're afraid people are going to be upset. We are.
A lot of times they're not. Mhm. A lot of times they go, "Oh my god, thank you so much for telling me." I think I found that sometimes people are relieved. Yeah. When you're really honest, even if you think they're not going to like those those conversations, right?
Which is always shocking. But no, why they're relieved? Because listen, when you are a straight shooter, Yeah. And you say yes when you mean yes and no when you mean no you are an emotionally trustworthy person. So when someone is a people pleaser and they're saying yes when they want to say no, sometimes you know every people pleaser in your life right now, Tim, you could literally list them.
Of course, because when that person says, "I'm definitely coming on Friday." I say to Vic, "April's coming. 50% chance April will be there on Friday because I know this girl does not know how to say no, right?" And and I don't like that energy. Like, like for me, you feel it when someone's like, "Well, I might and it's going to be a long day." You're like, "Yeah, they already told you no, but they're scared to finish the sentence. Please, just it's okay." It's funny. I was inviting one of my friends to go to Guatemala to me with me for like some yoga thing and I just said, "Hey, do you want to do this thing?" She's like, "Hate the sun. Hate Guatemala.
Hate yoga." No thanks. I love her. That isn't that great though. But that's that's a good friend. Of course.
And she knew I would a think that was funny, which I did. Yep. But B, she's also someone who I so trust. Yeah. Because she's never blowing sunshine out my ass for her own weird insecurity.
Yep. So, so you can ask other things and you really trust where that's coming from. And that and that's the huge the big huge difference. She will have the hard conversation and anyone when you're a trustworthy person, when you know yourself, when it's okay for you to say no, people are so comfortable around you. Yeah, I agree with that.
Because they don't have to double guess. They're not guessing like, does she really mean it? Does she not mean it? Is everything okay? They're not waiting for the other shoe to drop to see who who you're going to be that day.
Yeah. I mean, that's what happens, right? Right. Because we're acting these things out. We're not setting these boundaries.
We're saying yes and doing this thing. There's a part of you on that day of that thing that you agreed to do that you didn't want to do. You're literally pissed. You're livid and so mad at yourself and mad at yourself. So, what are the dangers of getting stuck in a victim mindset, which can happen often times when you're a high functioning codependent?
You're right. Because what happens with the victim mindset is that if you were doing all the things for all the people, even if they're not asking you, what it ends up translating to in our resentful inside is that that person is entitled, right? You're like, I cannot believe Betty that she would ask me to do this rather than the truth is that for most of us, we are serving ourselves up on a silver platter to overfunction and overgive and overdo. It's funny. I was walking with one of my my girlfriends, Kate Northrup, like 20 years ago.
We were in New York walking, walking, walking and she's complaining about this friend like, "I can't believe she asked me to do this again. I did this. I helped her move." She the whole entire walk she's like, "Who who does that? Who's raised like that? Who who continues to ask?" So entitled.
And we got there and I just said she reminded I never would have remembered this. I said, "Yeah, babe. She's got some nerve putting you in the position to have to simply say no." Oh gosh, Jerry. She was like, "Crap. Could I just say no?
I was like, "Yeah, babe." Yeah. Gosh. And then if you could just say no, you wouldn't even give a crap that she asked. Of course not. We make them wrong.
You already have your answer for asking. When you have the skills to protect yourself, have your own back. You You're not mad at them. Ask away. But you will not influence what I do because I'm so rock solid in myself.
I want to go into dating, but before that, I do want to hit I want to go back to menopause if we can. I think there are so many of these changes and I don't think that I don't think mental health is enough of the conversation yet when it comes to that. I think you I mean you see that you talk to these women all the time. What do you think the biggest thing we're struggling with now? We're we're starting to have the conversation.
We're starting to normalize it. We're trying to stop using the word taboo when it comes to it. But what what are these other changes that women are are going to go through? Because I I did hit up on the words now what and what's next? And I still do all the time.
And I do think especially women during this time are re-evaluating a lot of what's going on in their lives. I know part of it is what you're talking about, but what advice do you have to women that are at this time and they're handling a lot of different things and trying to figure out, I guess, how to find their their purpose in this next half? I think you have to prioritize yourself. And you know there was this meme going around not that long ago where you know the voice the gut man's voice says like you know busy mother you know stop doing everything or something like that and then people were clapping back and saying then who the is going to do it right right meaning people feel like they can't stop and yet we have to imagine a world where we can build time in for ourselves. So when you do the resentment inventory as as we said that's going to be step one it's really going to show you where are you resentful and be honest right because here's another thing women at this age and stage like permenopause going into menopause coming into my practice are it's almost like they've been so busy for so long like raising kids and taking care of parents and doing all the things they're doing that they haven't had a chance to really think about their feelings and then they woke up and it was like decades that They didn't think about their feelings and now you can't stop your feelings.
You've been shoving down resentment. Especially if especially the women who are doing all the emotional labor. They're working and like running the whole house and doing all the things and plan vacations and making sure that the mother-in-law card go like yeah autopilot all the things. But what I'm seeing is that the chickens come home to roost and there's a point where you it not satisfying anymore. Whether it ever was maybe the illusion of control was satisfying.
Whatever whatever it was and I'm not saying having a family is not satisfying. I'm saying of course not doing it this way that that pattern that pattern of behavior of how you're doing it. Yeah. Does it doesn't work anymore. And so what can you do is start carving out I call it really self-consideration because it's so much more than self-care, right?
Self-care sounds like a man petty and that too. That too which are okay but not saying we don't need those but this is this is different you know those two questions that we talked about before do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful and do I even want to do it those are the self-consideration questions y that most of us never gave ourselves the consideration to ask ever so what if you the two things that people listening if you did two things from watching or listening to this pod if you stopped auto advice giving and I'm going to give you what you can do instead expansive questions and you started prioritizing yourself. Make sure that you're taking care of your hormones. Y yes, it's complicated. Tamsen wrote a whole freaking book to make it super easy for you with every expert in the world.
So, it's no longer complicated, including one that's sitting right here. That's right. Including me on Boundaries. Sure. But really like you've done all the work for us which is why between the doc and the book I really I said it and I really think it's true.
I think at the documentary and the book the two most important things that have happened in my lifetime. Oh Terry, thank you. I'm not kidding because to see the ripple I'm crying. It's like the relief and me trying to with my clients and my friends and my sisters trying to do it. Oh, it's so much better to have a friend's book to make them go get.
Thank you. Because you know the HFC in me gets kicked up because I want everyone on hormone replacement therapy because we all need it. You know, no matter what we discover in this process of the are becoming for the second best part of our life, let's say it's you don't have to do anything, right? So, I feel like a lot of times we're in denial or we're self-sabotage because m maybe for some people they really feel like maybe their marriage is over or maybe maybe they really want to change their life. Maybe they don't want to be a doctor anymore or whatever the thing is and it's so scary.
But what I like to say is hey you can know that and do nothing right so but not knowing it in this fake way isn't the truth and you act you will act out that frustration. So just open your heart and your mind to whatever is real for you. It's almost like we're surrendering to what is in this next phase of life. Getting into recovery from being an HFC means we're so clear about what is not mine to do, right? And what is mine to do?
Letting the chips fall where they may when they're not your mother effing chips, as I like to say, because God, I feel like all the chips are mine. Like I you know I mean most of us as HFC's but I think this is a great time to be examining that too. I really do because we've live because I don't I don't know that there's the bandwidth to keep to keep doing that for the other third or other other half of our lives like I don't know that I have it correct. All right. I want to talk about dating and being in a relationship with an HFC and not realizing are there flags or dynamics to look out for if you're in a relationship with someone who's doing this to you?
Who is an HFC? Wow. I don't think I've ever had this question. So, we're talking from the Yeah. I mean, yeah.
Well, how do you respond to that when someone's constantly autoans answering you or constantly doing things for you or constantly making you an under underachiever? Yeah. I think you make a simple request that they stop, you know, like like my mother said, right? That if you keep doing all the things for all the people HFC's y you'll end up doing it all and doing it all alone but you're disenfranchising also the people in your life which is what you're talking about if you find yourself on the receiving end of that and the HFC is finishing your sentence or is asking you a loaded question this is this is HFC style so are you loving your new job wait why is that because I'm not asking you how your new job is I'm providing the answer that it's been great because I don't want you to tell me it's not. So, I would never I wouldn't have even thought of it like that.
Uhhuh. Any other other examples? Oh, so many. So, I put you on the spot all the time. I know.
That's okay. But so many of like example of one of for my own life. Vic used to want to drive from Jersey when we were dating. Yeah. To come pick me up on the Upper West Side and then drive back.
And I would say to my mother, "This makes no sense. I could just go to Penn and take a 20-minute trip. You know, I'm all about efficiency. It's not efficient." And she was like, "Hello." Every time he offers to do that to her, think of it as him handing you a blue box from Tiffany's. Yeah.
It's a gift. He wants to make your life easier. How about just let him? So, that would be me as an HFC trying to control the efficiency of this thing. Rather than just letting someone do something loving for me, and it did make my life easier.
I did just walk down my steps and hop in a car. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh, those are good. And they're so so very clear.
All right. Let's do a couple of heal solutions. How do we learn to love ourselves first? What happens is you change the behavior and the feelings will follow because selflove is way more of a lifestyle and a a a code of behavior than it is like a feeling, right? Because when we really love ourselves, we consider ourselves, we protect ourselves.
So how do we love ourselves first is by considering ourselves first knowing that you can always compromise from that point but tell the truth to yourself. How do you feel about this? Do you want to do this? Do you feel okay? Is this morally rubbing you the wrong way in some way?
Like how you feel matters? And to love yourself first means it matters most to you and that you can trust you to have your own back. To not do something that would be below your level of ethics or morals or to not put up with from someone. Yeah. It feels so crappy when you're doing something outside of your comfort level or zone or value system or any of that.
And you absolutely know it. There's no question about that. Yes, you do. And it's fear. Yep.
And it's fear-based. It's always fear-based. I'm so excited when everybody gets takeaways from this because I feel like everybody does. Okay. I've asked you, this is the final question, I promise.
Share a few of I feel like I could just keep going. A few of your favorite phrases for when somebody oversteps or guilts us. If you are with a chronic interrupter, and we all know these people. I love to bring in the physical body to start before I even make the boundary, which is just bringing one finger up. You know, if you were saying to somebody minute, you would hold your first finger up.
That's what I do first and then I say, "Oh, please let me finish what I was saying because if I don't, I no doubt I will absolutely forget." Usually this will stop an interrupter in their tracks. But sometimes when we we give a little context like that, it softens it as well. I love the this because it really stops people. Yes, it does. And then you can you can do a harder intervention if you're with someone who's making a racist comment, a misogynistic comment.
I literally just go, "No, thank you. No, I will I will block someone's face if if they're doing something that's really offensive." So, the physical the physical parts of these behaviors are really important. Yeah. Because we want our body language to support what we're saying. Yep.
When somebody guilts us. Somebody guilts you. Huh. This is a big one. How what would they say if they were guilting you?
Oh, you know, I really was counting on you to come. I can't believe you're not going to be able to make it. Yeah, I'm not. I'm sorry, but I hope you guys have a great time. That's so hard and so simple.
Uhhuh. It's just saying it, right? So, I feel so bad. Or or you know, you said you said you could you could do it. Like sometimes you have to back out of things like we have to give ourselves permission to course correct and to change our minds and to make mistakes.
And if they say, "Well, I was, you know, I thought you said you were going to do it." You're right. I did. And I'm sorry. I just overestimated my bandwidth. I'm really sorry.
I actually really can't. I I love I was so excited about this conversation. I feel like I could keep going with you. But I feel like every piece of advice is something that people are going to listen to and have 20 examples of it throughout their day. No, no matter where they are, whether it's people pleasing, high functioning, codependent, or, you know, just trying to get through every day right now.
Yes. And what about people who ask you intrusive questions? Anybody? Of course. Why didn't you have kids?
I get I get why don't you Why didn't you ever have kids? What? You know, like Yeah, women get all sorts of things. So, I don't know. Why didn't you ever have kids?
And you could say, why would you ask me that? Gosh, I need to bring you with me everywhere, too. No, you could say it nicely though. You could have a smile. You could just say, or why would you want to know that?
How would that help you to know? Oh gosh. And then you put it back on them. Yeah. That that is actually Kesha Urbaniac's work.
It's power dynamics where when you're asking me a question, you're the dom and I'm the sub. When I flip that question back to you, especially an appropriate question, now I'm I'm the dom and you're the sub. Now, you have to say something when I go so much of the time when I ever use that and I do it gently. Yeah, of course. But it stops people in their tracks.
They're not going to continue down that questioning. And it's unless they're maybe not the smartest people and then they may say, "I was just curious." And you could say, "Isn't that funny though? Your morbid curiosity is actually not my responsibility." All right. One thing to leave people with if they have any have any thoughts especially going into this next phase of life I think pmenopause and menopause is you know is what we talk a lot about but we have a lot of the high functioning codependent behaviors during this time that there's so much peace and excitement and juiciness on the other side because part of the biggest costs of living this way is we end up living what I call life light lit t because we're living so much here that everything just It's not as hard, not as juicy. Our memories are not as sharp because we were thinking about this.
We were thinking about anticipating the next problem. We were thinking, we were ruminating about something rather than simply being present in our lives. So there's so much good stuff waiting for you and all of your good qualities as an HFC, all of your high functioningness, that is only going to be amplified. You don't suddenly become low functioning because you get into recovery course. You're just so much happier and the people in your life are probably less afraid of you because if you're an HFC, you've got lots of opinions about the way things should be done.
And when you start to really accept the people in your life where they are and love them for where they are, your relationships will also really, really blossom. Where can people find you? Okay, before I tell you where you can find me, I actually have a gift for your audience because this is a lot and it can be overwhelming. So, I have I created an HFC toolkit to just give you a place to start. So, you can get that at terry cole.comHFC.
And you guys can find me. I hang out on Instagram probably the most. I have a podcast which you've been on a bunch of times called the Terry Cole Show for 10 years. And my really everything that I do is on my website, terry cole.com. Wonderful.
Thank you. Thank you. So many of us were taught to just be nice instead of honest, to put everybody else first, even if it cost us our sleep and our sanity. But I want to remind you, as Terry reminded us today, the path to true intimacy and self-worth begins when we stop performing and start showing up for ourselves. You don't have to be everything for everyone.
You don't have to earn love, and you don't have to overachieve or continue to keep proving yourself. Your needs matter, too. And it's never too late to rewrite your relationship blueprint, starting with the one you have for yourself. Terry, thank you for continuing to remind us that radical honesty is an act of self-love. If this conversation resonated with you, please share the episode with a friend or somebody you love.
Email me with your questions and comments at podcast tamsonfidel.com and subscribe to our YouTube channel for more relatable conversations each week. Thanks for being here and I'll see you next week on The Tamsen Show. The Tamsen Show is an original production by Authentic Wave. Executive producers Scott Weinberger, Kevin Bennett, and Rebecca Greersonen. Brand director Johanna Offnik.
Our line producer is Sabrina Sere. Editing by Zach Smith and Marquee Harris.
