I felt the safest with him, always. He was my dad. You play a role for so long, you can't help but just fantasize and fall into that chemistry. And he felt like that for me. I mean, being in his arms is where I felt safe.
Like being in his presence as an actress, as a human. And I knew he respected me, and I knew that he loved me, and I knew that he would keep my secret. From being diagnosed with MS at 20, hiding it while starring on one of the most iconic shows of our time, to living her truth out loud in her new memoir, And So It Is. Jamie-Lynn Sigler story is for everyone who's ever carried something heavy in silence, and is finally ready to put it down. It presents differently in everybody.
What does it look like for you? I had weakness in my right leg since the beginning, and so that's just sort of has progressed over time. It's like every time you have a relapse, damage is made, and then you're kind of left with that damage. I've had bladder incontinence issues in the past. I just can't physically do the things that truthfully I want to do.
And I'm not going to lie and say that it's all great. I have heartbreak every day about my body. Hi friends, welcome back. I am so glad you're here. So, if you've ever wondered whether or not a conversation could really shift something in you, this might be the one.
I'm sitting down with Jamie-Lynn Sigler. You might know her as Meadow Soprano from The Sopranos, and you may also know she has MS, and a hit podcast with her best friend Christina Applegate called Messy. But what you may not know about her is everything else. Jamie just written this memoir called And So It Is. And friends, I am telling you, this is one of the most honest books I've ever read.
And the reason I'm so excited to have her on today is because what she's written is going to hit so many of you in places you weren't expecting. This is a conversation about what it costs a woman to keep a secret, how to let go of a version of yourself to become who who really are. And I know we've all struggled with this. Every woman I know has lived some version of these things. And Jamie has lived extreme versions of all of them.
Which is exactly why I think we're all going to walk away from this episode with so much. Women carry shame. We just We just do. We carry so much so much longer than we should. And what Jamie has put on these pages is going to give a lot of us permission to let some of it go.
So, let's get into it. Well, Jamie, it's so good to see you. You too. So, I told you I read this book cover to cover and appreciated every word because I saw myself in a lot of the pages and I think that that's what women are going to do is see themselves in these pages. And that's my greatest wish, so I'm so glad to hear that.
Well, I hope you heard over and over again throughout, you know, the course of more and more people reading the book, you know, you had so many private battles while you were so very very public. So, what made you decide to do this book now? Yeah. I think I'm just I'm ready to share authentically and honestly in a way that so clearly I never have been able to before. You know, I would be presented with the idea of like, "Would you ever want to write a book?" over once I became public with MS, so over the last 10 years.
And I would always have this kind of visceral like, "No." Because I thought the only story that had any value to tell of my life was my journey with MS. And while that is an important one and one that I do share, I was fearful about being identified as somebody just like with MS. But 2 years ago when it was presented to me again, I don't know. I just think I was in this place in my life where I felt really ready to just be as authentically honest as I needed to be in this memoir. And it was this full-body yes.
And I sat down in front of my laptop and I wanted to see how I would pitch this book to publishers. And this letter to my younger self poured out of me and that's when I understood what the real story here was was giving a voice to a version of me once upon a time that felt so alone and so isolated in her struggles and didn't know how to ask for help and didn't know she deserved that help and didn't open herself up to the love and support that she could have received. And I know that that is a story that so many of us can relate to and this reckoning and this opportunity to sort of rewrite the past is possible and just the the freedom that I feel in my life and even in my body despite being in one that is disabled is a space I never thought I'd be able to exist in. There was this one sentence because I when you're reading this book and you hear that younger self and then you're going to set and you're hiding you know secrets and you're getting close to you know certain actor you know Jim Gaffigan I mean when we're talking about these big presences in all of our lives if you wanted to say one thing to young Jamie what would that be today just one you know she's sitting right here next to you what would what would you say to her? First I want to tell her that I'm really proud of her and that she's much stronger than she thinks.
I know I see the the the burden that she's carrying is a heavy one but also I want to promise her that everything that she's going through will shape her and show her what she's made of and make her grow and she will have gratitude one day for all of it. But how did you get to that place? Because that took a long time right? Time. So would you want to talk about your diagnosis and and that day and what that was and then how you got to where you are today because when you call it a reckoning I hear the reckoning.
I see the reckoning. Yeah. You know, I was so fragile. I was so afraid. I was already at this place when I was diagnosed where I had felt like I had so many issues.
I had like every season of the show, it was like an eating disorder, then I had Lyme's disease, and then I was getting married to this older man, and it was just like all of these things that I and I'm such a people pleaser. I want to be the good girl and and not and not be the problem. And so, by the time I was diagnosed with MS, it was like, "Oh my god, no. There's no way I could share this, too." And also, 20 years old, you you just you don't know how to absorb that. And the people around me, we were all so green to the business and and being in the public eye, it just felt like the safest thing to do to keep it a secret.
And unfortunately, that's just how I had to live until I finally felt ready to share. But like you said, that took a long time. It took a lot of painful moments, a lot of confronting moments, a lot of soul-searching, a lot of therapy, a lot of hard conversations, a lot of embarrassing moments, moments that again, I don't have any regrets about, but if anything, I just hope that I can give fair warning to anyone else that might be in a similar position, whether you're in the public eye or not, of feeling afraid to share parts of yourself for fear of being judged or dismissed, that you're you are robbing yourself of opportunities, of connection and service and and love that you deserve. The things that happen to us are not our fault. And I think you have this opportunity.
I always say like pain is inevitable in life, struggle is inevitable. Life is for learning. This whole human experience is we never know what's around the corner. But the stories that we constantly will ourselves or the labels that we give ourselves because of those struggles, because of the pain is where real suffering is. And I suffered for so long because of the stories that I told myself and I'm able to rewrite that.
And we are all able to rewrite those stories. You know, I I think a lot about I'm 55 years old now and I had an eating disorder when I was younger. And so when you were talking about writing the you every single thing you ate, like I was I'd write gum, 5 calories. You know, I did all of it. Yeah.
Wow. And so that really hit me. And then I I went through my first marriage to a a narcissist and that really hit me. And so I think about the women that are listening to this that are, you know, maybe they're in their late 30s, 40s, 50s and said like, "Hey, it's not too late for me to rewrite that story." What What do you want them to know about where to start that? Because sometimes starting that is I think the most difficult part.
It's forgiveness for me. It's first and foremost forgiving yourself. Forgiving that version of you that was just doing the best that she could and didn't know any better and was trying just to survive. And then the forgiveness can extend to the other people, you know, even the villains in our stories, right? They were also doing the best that they could and at least that's how I would like to believe and I've seen such a softening.
I've seen such miracles. I've seen so many full circle moments that I also get to share in the book of of when you open yourself up to that forgiveness, the change that can happen because for me many of my circumstances haven't changed, but when you shift the perspective, it's it all is just so much easier and lighter and more loving and, you know, that's Yeah, I think the first step for me was forgiving myself because I was just so hard on myself for so long. I'm glad you have. Thank you. Thank you.
You have an incredible marriage to an incredible man. I listened to the podcast with you and your husband and you know, he's just pretty amazing probably to wake up to every day. He is a good good person. He is wired to just take care of people. It's kind of who he is and I think we are sort of met each other in this moment where we really needed the other person.
And I just give him so much credit for the woman I am today because he he to me is the perfect example of unconditional love. Like he has let me be really messy in my healing journey and express myself and sort of toy with all the different colors and versions and emotions all while knowing that this man is not going anywhere and he sees me and he loves me and I'm just so grateful for him and will always give him the credit that he deserves of being such a huge part of my journey. You. You talk about Messy, the name of your podcast with Christina Applegate. Let's talk about MS and that diagnosis.
It presents differently in everybody. What does it look like for you? Because everybody comes about it very, very differently and has different symptoms. Yes. Yes.
It's they call it kind of like the snowflake disease. Like everybody's, you know, the the neurological symptoms vary from person to person. For me, I have had weakness in my right leg since the beginning and so that's just sort of has progressed over time. It's like every time you have a relapse, damage is made and then you're kind of left with that damage. And so I have spasticity where if I go from sitting to standing, I kind of feel like I get like an electric shock through my body.
I've had bladder incontinence issues in the past. I've had you know, I just I just can't physically do the things that truthfully I want to do. And I'm not going to lie and say that it's all great. I have heartbreak every day about my body. Especially one that I was able to live in for 20 years fully able-bodied.
But I also have now lived my entire adult life with MS. And so it just it just comes with me every day and I have to have acceptance for it. It's the only way that I'm able to pursue everything that I want to do in my life. And I think that where it's been the most challenging, to be honest, is motherhood. I think that's where I've felt the most insecurities, where I've felt just sad that I couldn't participate in ways that I wouldn't I know I would have wanted to, especially having two young active boys.
What are some of the ways? I I would love to be on the field playing with them. Like when I when they're going to go down and shoot basketball hoops, I I would go. The Jamie at my core would be the mom outside doing that with them till sundown. But, instead, I pull up a chair at the top of our patio, and I just watch them.
I just show up the ways that I can, and thankfully, they remind me all the time that they feel my presence as a mother, and I've had to do some real soul searching in understanding that just because I have MS doesn't take away my value as a mom. How did you decide what you fight for and what to let go of at this stage in life? Oof, that's a good one. I think I'm still I think I learn that every day, but I I think that's one of the beautiful parts about aging. Yes.
Is that you really you really feel more comfortable with your voice and knowing yourself and what you want and what you don't want and what you want to spend your time and energy on and and not. You know, MS can give me an easy excuse, and I I've always been very conscious to not use it as one, but there are times where I just have to take care of myself, and I think because I've had to have firmer boundaries because of MS, they've sort of allowed me to have firmer boundaries in general in my life and get in touch with being able to advocate for myself more with that. You know, but I just I know what I value the most, and that's my friends and my family and my work, and so that gets all of me. And I I I've also learned to sort of get rid of the guilt, too, especially being a working mom of just being present where I am and knowing that when I'm with them, they'll get they'll get me fully. I think about friends or mentors in your life, James Gandolfini being one of them.
You write some really touching things about him and what you shared with him before anybody else. Thoughts about how you carry him through these years? He had no idea of his magic, or if he did, he kind of fought against it. He just didn't never wanted to be the special human that he was. He just wanted to be like everybody else and he just wasn't and he lives on forever and it was an honor to be able to you know, memorialize him the way I was able to in my book because he took such careful care of me but in such a specific and kind and you know, sophisticated way where it wasn't pushy, he didn't pry, he knew the right moments because I was just so closed off and he felt that but he he saw my pain underneath, he saw my struggle and he was the first person that I told I had MS because he saw me in my pain and he knew somehow that I needed somebody to know.
He knew something was wrong, he didn't know what. And then from then on it was just a nod or a pat on the back or a squeeze of my hand and that was all I needed to get me through those last few years. How did you know he was the one to tell? I felt the safest with him, always. He was my dad.
We you know, you play a role for so long, you can't help but just fantasize and and fall into the those that chemistry and he he felt like that for me. I mean, being in his arms is where I felt safe, like being in his presence as an actress, as a human. So and I knew I knew he respected me and I knew that he loved me and I knew that he would keep my secret. I knew that he would understand why and he never needed much explanation which is also why I think I felt so safe. Like like I I'd never would have had to explain myself.
When you were on that set of The Sopranos, you know, there's one part in your book when you said you walked into a an apartment or a dorm and you see like the picture of you staring back when you were very very young and you think about that and you think about Meadow then and who Meadow might be today. Who would she be today? It's my favorite question to ask cuz I I think she's for sure still living in Jersey. She was never going to get too far away. I think she's a public defender.
And I think she's just married an Italian man. And she didn't stray too far. I like that Meadow. Yeah, I like her too. You know, when I when I sit and I look at you and I think about James Gandolfini and now Christina Applegate being such a force.
We talked before we sat down about community and how important that is. What is the Messy podcast give to you and how is Christina doing? Christina doing great. She's getting better every day. She is one of the strongest women that I know and I love her so much.Messy, I think really gave me just like really gave me the voice that I have today and really gave me the opportunity to be ready to write this book and it gave me community. Because Christina and I are sharing the way that we used to share privately. Everything. Everything. That was Those were our private phone conversations of two women that had a very unique and specific experience in common, but also we're mothers and we're actresses and we just and have had such history and feelings about things and to be able to share with her in that way and then for her to be like, I'd be okay sharing this publicly.I was like, okay, then I'll do it with you. You know, she really I think was the last final piece of me being like, I am I'm not afraid to just share my true authentic self and to see that the way it's received. There's no shame. We're not embarrassed. You know, people receive it like really saying thank you.Thank you for speaking up. Thank you for giving me a voice and even at some of my book signings, I I had a woman come up to me and say, I am exactly your age. I have two young boys. You walk like me, you talk like me. Thank you.And I just started crying. I said, thank you. That's important for me to know, too. I need to see another woman my age that walks like me, that talks like me, that's in this struggle with me. It's I get just as much from it.And it's also it feels like part of my purpose and part of why I'm here and doing this. When Edie Falco finished my book, she called me and she said, I I hate the things that you've been through. But I'd like to think that you've been given this journey for a reason because of the way that you are willing to share. And I believe her. I believe her, too.I believe her, too. And I believe no one told us we were allowed to do that. You talk about the good girl you know, syndrome, which I think that we a lot of us have had to an extent and it's it's not an easy one. There's no question about that. No, and it's and it's no one's fault, right?You know, it's kind of the world that we come into, but I think the more that we use our voices, the more that we share in our vulnerability and our truth, the more that we can dismantle that. Do you feel like you're unfinished right now? Not finished yet with what's next? No, my husband's favorite thing to tell me all the time is your story isn't over yet. And it's and it's the thing that I will tell everyone all the time because you never know what's around the corner.But I think for the first time in my life, I don't feel afraid because I feel so loved and supported. And a lot of that proof to me came through struggle and painful moments in my life, but you know, I find gratitude for all of it and I feel kind of brand new. I feel like I'm facing the world in a way that I always dreamed I could. Did you think about that? Did you ever think like I wish I could do that, but I just it's just not me.
Yes, I would look at women or people and think, why she's so free. She's just so open and real. Ione Skye was one of them. Like when I first met her, I'm like, look at her like asking for what she needs and like everyone thought she was charming and loving and amazing and I just never thought that that could be me, but we all have a a special thing that we bring and I'm finally able to kind of figure out what that is. Like all the barriers are down.
I feel like you're going to be what James Gandolfini was to you. Oh. To somebody else. I hope so. I hope so.
I'd like to think that he would be happy to see the way I'm living my life now. I think so. What is next for you? Well, this book is out in the world and I'm so grateful for the opportunity to have that. I still have Messy.
I've actually been putting together and we're going to film this summer a short film inspired by a journey that I had with my son that I write about. It was a life-changing thing and he came back with such wisdom and light and love to share and so I clearly love to turn my pain into art. So that's there and then, you know, I've got to work on some great shows that are coming out this year and I don't know, I'm just excited and to see what's to come for me. You know, you started this book with a very just such a touching and frightening story of Bo. How is he today and how did that experience change everything for and so it is?
Yeah. Well, he's doing very well. Thank you for asking. He's in the sixth grade, just finishing it up. He's playing baseball.
He's a happy little boy. I was in the midst of writing this book when he got sick. So it obviously changed my life and reshaped a lot of this, but what that experience taught me was who I've become. Like the woman I've become, the way I was able to advocate for him and my family and be so strong and and be so available and understand his physical struggle and and also be able to support him in the ways that he needed to in his recovery. And also just the community that I've been able to cultivate over the years and being unafraid to ask for help and and receive I mean if I was unable to ask for help during that moment in my life, I never would have made it through.
And so it's also a love letter to everyone in my life that has loved me and supported me and held secrets for me until I was ready to share. I'm so glad you're ready. Thank you. And so it is you have a tattoo. I do.
How did that title come up? I that's my last question but I have to know. Yes. So, you know, much of the book is sort of me sort of imploding, right? And these secrets and this this heaviness and just sort of the years of that toll on me physically and emotionally and I finally in a moment in the book found an opportunity to have a foundation of faith and find a way for me that something that I connected to which is something called A Course in Miracles and and finally felt tethered and strong and connected and I didn't want to forget that moment and so immediately I had and so it is tattooed on me because in the book of A Course in Miracles that's the way they end every affirmation, every prayer.
It's it's acceptance, it's hope, it's all of the things and in that moment is when my true healing started to begin in the book and so and so it is was the way we end every Messy Podcast and it's was the only title for this book because it means so many things. It's accepting, like I said, it's it's hope, it's an affirmation of all of your wishes and dreams that we all deserve to put out there. You well, you deserve all of them. Jamie, you're a gem. Thank you so much.
I'm so glad we had this time. Me, too.
