Hi friends, welcome back. I am so glad you're here. I get messages from women in their 30s all the time who ask, is it too late to start over? And sometimes I want to laugh out loud because 30 sounds so young to me, but when you're in it, it can feel like life is already over. I felt that way too at that age, and again in my 40s, and again in my 50s, and I probably will in my 60s.
I think that's part of being a woman, honestly. So, no matter what your age is, you need to hear today's conversation. I am talking to the legendary Rita Wilson who started over at 56. 56. She went from actress, producer, the woman behind some of the biggest movies of our generation to writing her own music and performing it on stages all across the world. And now at 69, not only does she look better than ever, she's more confident than ever before.
We are covering all of it in this episode. Her breast cancer diagnosis, losing her parents, her almost a 40-year marriage to Tom Hanks, what it takes to find your voice when you have spent decades next to other people's, and so much more. If you're listening to this right now wondering, is it too late to start over? You need to keep listening because Rita is going to show all of us what is possible for the next chapter. Let's get into it.
It's so good to see you. Hi Tamsen, it's so good to see you and be here. Thank you for having me. Well, thank you. You know, I was watching a video of you in Times Square celebrating the release of the album and I just I wanted to like feel what that beautiful moment was like for you.
It was unbelievable. I think you're talking about the big billboard. The big billboard. It was surreal, like even though I I'm in this business and I've been it's really the only job I've ever had. I never even imagined or dreamed that there would be something like one of those huge digital billboards in Times Square.
So, um And went down there to see it and I was kind of overwhelmed by how exciting it was. [laughter] It's [gasps] It's silly to say that, but yeah, it was fantastic. It's not. I felt caught up in it. I was like I was like, "Oh my gosh." And you have just made your most personal album at 69 years old.
Yeah. Is this the time that you felt, "I can tell my truth. I know who I am. I've got a lot to say right now, differently from other times." It was I think it's taken me this long to really find my own voice. And I like to say metaphorically and literally.
Because when I look back on the things that I really, really wanted to do when I loved when I was a kid, it was music. And everybody has the answer to that question, by the way. If you ever ask them, "What did you love to do as a kid?" They always have the answer. Mhm. And mine was music.
And even thinking back on it, I was in a church singing group. I would sing all the time with my with my parents. Said, "Sing that song." I would get up and do it. But um the other stuff, acting and all of that, sort of found its way and sort of took priority. I didn't play any instruments, so that was also challenging.
How am I going to get a band together? I didn't know. But over the years, just because I've done the same job my whole life, in the beginning, I thought, "Wow, this is the greatest job ever. If I can just make my rent and [clears throat] have a car that I own and insurance that I can buy and have an apartment, that would be fantastic." You know, my dad was a bartender, so it's like if I could own a house one day, that was success to me. And it was very lucky that I got to work as much as I did, but I never dreamed that I could be a singer-songwriter, which is what I really wanted to do.
And then I never dreamed that it could happen in my 50s. Mhm. That was a shock to me. And then I learned that I had limited myself by my own internal belief systems about what you could or could not do at a certain age. And then I'm in a business that's kind of ageist that says, "You can't do that.
There's no place for you." And I also didn't have a role model to say, "Oh no, so-and-so did it in music. She started in her 50s and she um is doing great." There wasn't anybody like that. And I realized, too, that there are if you take art, just any art, and you present it, and it's a painting or a book or a photograph or a poem or anything you can think of that's creative. And you say you you take that piece of work and you read it, you look at it, you absorb it. And you really don't know was that a man, a woman, a child, an adult, a 90-year You don't know anything.
You just take the work at the face value and and the work that is there. But the minute you put yourself out there, now people can see what you look like and that you're not 25, all of a sudden it feels very different. It doesn't have the same sort of um sizzle, let's say, as somebody out there who's who's starting new. And someone actually said this to me and I was like, yeah, you're right. That our business is very agist, particularly music.
At least in acting you can, you know, go into the roles like as Goldie Hawn said in First Wives Club, you know, Driving Miss Daisy. But but in music there's just wasn't that example. But there are examples everywhere of women who have started incredible things in their 50s. Well, you're that example now. [laughter] And you've got a lot of sizzle real You have a lot of sizzle, I think.
Thank you. Thank you. [laughter] Were you ever expecting life to look like this in some way? Like I like what you said and it it took me back for a second when you said, if you ask anybody what they wanted to do when they were younger, they know the answer. Yeah.
And then somewhere along the way we, you know, life life got in the way, right? the thing that you wanted to do when you were younger that you loved doing? Uh I wanted to be on Broadway. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be on Broadway. Well, I'm saying it's not too late.
Okay, thank you. Really, it's not too late. I'll take that because I That's what I always wanted to do and I love the arts and I There was just something I mean I performed in the garage. I charged my parents 25 cents, you know, I did I did all of it. Yeah.
So you're right about that and when I see somebody now go and do that, I think there's some kind of reassurance because a lot of us say it, I'm 55. I think I might have said to you, oh, I don't know what my purpose is. I don't know what I want to do because we kind of forgot along the way. Well, first of all, I didn't You can ask yourself that question, what's your purpose? Yeah.
And you can have all of these different things that you think are your purpose. But a friend of mine, his his name is Don Deponie. He's a Hindu priest. He was a monk for 10 years and then when his guru died, he decided he was going to leave the monastery. And we were having a discussion about purpose.
And I said, he asked me, what do you know what your purpose is? And I said, oh, you know, my purpose is XYZ and he said, no, those are all like subcategories of purpose. And he said, how you really figure out what your purpose is is to ask yourself, what is it that you can do that requires no one else and you can still do it on your deathbed. And when he said that, I knew exactly what the answer was and for me, it was to bring people joy. To make people feel seen in some way.
Because I can do that if I am not walking anymore, if I still have my faculties and I can make somebody feel good or make them laugh or encourage them in some way, then that's good. And what he said after that is, once you know what that is, then your everything you do that comes your way, it's much easier to say no or yes to because now you're aligned with your purpose. So if somebody says, do you know, do you want to come on and you know, I don't know what the [gasps] I don't know what a what analogy would be, what an analogy would be, but if it doesn't align with that, like is this going to bring people joy? You're probably going to say no. Everyone needs to hear that.
Everyone needs to hear what you just said. Did that happen to you in your 50s? Is that when you Absolutely. That's why I'm going to turn and do what I know what I I want to do. Yeah.
It was um a combination of things. I had asked myself, like, what is it that I want to do, right? Because that question came up. And I didn't know what it was that I wanted to do and I didn't think I could even want anything because if you want something, at least the way I was brought up, it meant that you were being ungrateful, that you know, some lightning bolts would hit you. My parents were immigrants, they came to America.
They were just so thankful to be, you know, free of communism. And I grew up every day hearing God bless America. So, to me, to want something more than what they already had felt very selfish. So, when I started thinking about, well, what is it that I want? I couldn't even answer the question.
It felt so scary to answer that. And then I did the the actor's game, which is um what if? What if I could want something, what would it be? And the answer was music. And that automatically connected me to, yeah, that's exactly what I've wanted to do.
And so, um very, very soon after that, I got cast in the Broadway show Chicago. And that really brought me into my body. It brought music into my body. It brought dancing into my body. It made me feel like the most most of who I was.
And that really opened up the window to music. And soon after that, I produced um Mamma Mia! The Musical. And I realized at that time like, this movie is giving so many people joy. And it's making so many people happy that I knew, okay, I had a little personal mis- mission statement, which was everything I do has to have some form of music in it.
And that really led me to singer-songwriter and making music. And that's a whole other story, but you know. Well, we're going there. Okay, good. [laughter] All right, fine.
I but I want to go back because Mamma Mia!, Sleepless in Seattle, uh My Big Fat Greek Wedding, I mean, the the things that you've done, people you've worked alongside, it's just a an incredible It's just from, you know, just looking at a few of the titles. Um, it's just incredible. Did you always know though, while you were doing all of those things, music was sitting there somewhere? Yeah. It was like an ache.
It was like a longing. Like it was sitting there and how do I make it happen and how do I get to it and how do I move it forward. It was just it felt very far away. Mhm. And also limiting because like I said, there really wasn't anybody doing it.
And so how do you begin it? And it actually started because I had this idea to do a show that that I was not necessarily going to be in, but it was about um music. And I met someone who was an A&R person. And he he said, "Let me talk to you about this." And we were talking about the the musical. And he said, "Are you going to sing or do this?" And I said, "I I don't know.
I don't think so." He said, "You should meet this producer, Fred Mullen." And so I met with Fred and our thing was to just go through music, right? And like what songs would be good for this musical project. And then Fred and Jay Landers, the person, they said, "Why don't you make an album and then see, sometimes people do albums first and then they do they can develop something afterwards." And I was said, "Oh, I've never thought of that, but okay." And they made it sound so simple and so easy Mhm. that I was kind of like lulled into doing it. And I was just making an album thinking, "Okay, this is great." But Jay at the time was at a label and he brought in the label head to just I thought the The head was just stand, you know, coming in one day to just say hi to Jay. But then they ended up offering me me a deal for that album.
And so now I had an album. Now it's getting [laughter] Yeah, exactly. But that was all cover songs. That was called AM FM. Do you think if you'd have known that that's what was going to happen next, you would have approached it the same way?
Because you said some of the hardest thing is knowing where to begin, right? No, I would have been so stressed if I had ever I thought I was just doing something for myself. I didn't think it would be anything I'd really put out there or anything. But then it became real when they were like, "No, we want this album." Wow, okay. That was That was a surprise.
You know, you talk uh about age and and ageism. And I think that that's even though we do hear some stories of people that are, you know, over 40, over 50. When I look at the trajectory of our lives and where we are now, we have another like another whole life. Really, it's it's very very incredible. Yeah.
You've just released your fourth album now, right? Sixth. album now. I mean, what do you what do you want to do next? Like what do you keep doing that and what else? Because I I think that you are it's just another beginning of your life of decades of what you can do next.
I am continuing to do it because I think earlier you asked me you know, why was I doing it and really it's because I have something to say, let's say. And instead of in in this album Sound of a Woman, it's really about the experiences that women have throughout their lives. This sort of arc of identities and labels and experiences that women go through that you can't write about if you're 25 or 30. You can write about part of that experience, but you're not having this whole arc of Okay, so then what happens when you're 40 and you're you're married, let's say, and you have kids, or maybe you're divorced and you're trying to find your voice and you're out there and you're you're looking at it and you think that number 40 seems old and defines you in a certain way and you don't even realize that the best years are yet to come in terms of shedding the things that don't work for you anymore, and you get to shape who you are at any step of the way. You're not You begin to define yourself and you begin to eliminate sort of those labels that are put on women and have different conversations.
So, that's kind of what I feel like is like, what else do I want to be saying now? You What did you have to shed to be able to do that? Because I I think about, you know, the the songs and the titles and talking about marriage and talking about mothers, and you really hit I mean, I'll tell you, I told you before we sat down, I can't listen to mother without tearing up because it speaks to me. Because at 55, it speaks to me because of losing my mother. It speaks to me.
Yeah. Um what did you have to shed to be able to get that real and and and raw and and quiet with yourself to write those songs? Yeah, I think some of it is what what society uh imposes Sure. on women. You come into the world and you're like, "Oh, what a sweet little girl." Or, "Boy, she's a sassy teen." Or, you know, whatever those labels are. And you say, "She's such a good wife.
She's such a good mother." Okay, that's society. But then there's the internal Yeah. belief systems. You know, I I really was a good girl. I really wanted I didn't want to give my parents any problems. They were amazing people that were such good people and had such difficult childhoods on their own that I didn't want to trouble them.
I wanted to do the right thing. I think the first thing I did that might have disappointed them was not going to college, like not completing college. I went to 2 years of community college. And and yet my parents never stopped me from doing anything, but it was sort of like, okay, I had this one generation, my mom's generation, that was old-fashioned and very traditional. And then ahead of me I had Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug and, you know, Joan Baez and Joni Mitchell and Carole King and all these women who were [clears throat] out there that were breaking rules and I had never been a rule breaker or a rebel or anything, right?
And then I'm in the middle and I'm like, but I love my mom, but I love what these women are doing and what do I do and who am I? Where do I fit into these two worlds? And so, um I worked. I mean, I worked all my life and that really helped me um find myself in the world in some ways, but still being in a very public profession and feeling very, very private, like I just I am more comfortable talking about you than I am talking about me. And I've had to, even in this course of of, you know, being out here with this album, not only are the lyrics very personal, but what I'm talking about with you all is personal and feels a little scary because it's like all of it is Yeah, it does.
It's just I'm just so private. I'd rather be superficial about it all and just go, "Yeah, it's fine. I love it. Good music. Great." and then move on.
But, um we're having these deeper conversations. You know, you're you're confronting those things of your own insecurities and doubts and belief systems like, are these true? Do Do they Are these true for me now? Were they true [clears throat] for me then? What are they?
Well, and I also think that somebody at 20 can't can't doesn't necessarily hasn't had those experiences. No. You know, and I don't think there's a lot of people to your point that are that are our ages that are having those because we all want to say like, "It's okay. I've got it. It's under control.
I'm a good girl." and and hide behind a lot of those words, those superficial words versus really that rawness that we all need to hear. Oh, I I have so many younger women friends and they are and and guy friends, too. And they are incredible because particularly the young women who know so much who they are already in their 20s and they use their voices in an incredible way, but in the same way they we've lost that connection to sort of a multi-generational uh gathering of people that we can learn from. And my mom always said, "Your children teach you." and I believe that's true. And so, I'm always looking at them like, "What can I learn from you?" And I hope that, you know, now I I become much more unfiltered and I just [laughter] say things that, you know, I do now if I'm being a little too unfiltered, I will sometimes say something like, um "I have some thoughts on this.
Do you want to hear what they are?" because it's otherwise it could be like a bombardment. [laughter] My husband says I always start it with, "I'm curious." Yes, that's Curious is being very good. I like I'm curious. I'm curious about this. Well, I didn't know filtered Rita, but I like unfiltered Rita, that's for sure.
Yeah. Okay, good. [laughter] Let's go to Let's go to your parents because I know that they gave so much for you to be here. They did. Um and you have some really special stories about them.
And you you talked about your dad being a bartender and I know that that you learned a lot from him. Even when from him. You know, look, both my parents had incredible work ethics and I think I learned work ethics from both of them, but for different reasons. My dad was a bartender and he would come home and um on Saturday mornings he would empty out these Crown Royal, you know, the the whiskey, right? I do.
And they were these little purple bags and they had like felt and they had little drawstrings and little crown on it said Crown Royal and he would keep his tips in there. And so he'd put the tips out onto the kitchen table and all the kids would sort out the nickels, dimes, and pennies and quarters and then we'd put them into the little coin rolls and mom would would write the bank account number and mom would take them to the bank on Monday. Wow. And I realized that those tips helped my parents, this will make me cry. Pennies bought a house.
Nickels, dimes, and quarters bought a house. And I don't know if people can do that nowadays. I really don't know. But I learned a work ethic from that. I learned that [snorts] saving, my parents never had debt except for that house payment and I remember the day they paid it off.
And it was such a happy day. And so um my parents never complained. [snorts] Like I I I never felt I knew that we didn't go out to dinners. I knew that, you know, we had one vacation a year and it was at Las Vegas in the summertime when the rates were the cheapest. [laughter] [gasps] And we could drive there.
And my mom sewed our clothes. She cooked our food. We really didn't go out to dinner. Uh going to McDonald's was a big treat. And so, um I I recognized that there was sacrifice involved and also that things were special, you know?
Like, when you did something, it was special. And I never ever have lost that. I I'm a big believer in celebration because even if it's a birthday, it whatever it is, let's celebrate it, you know? It's like good. And the values.
And the values, yeah. sitting right here today with all that you've done and all that you're going to continue to do that you still hold with you. Yeah, totally. Totally. And those are the things like, as you get older, you you really get rid of the things that are not your values and you begin to really double down on the things that really are the most important. And so, um you you kind of can let go of of that superficial part of what you thought was important, you know?
Has that helped you enjoy getting older versus fear it versus dread it? 100%. Oh my god, yes. Oh, yeah. Cuz I think we we've taught, especially women, I mean, I just, you know, I was in television for a very long time where they put a shelf, I remember I sat next to this woman who was maybe a decade older than me and she was my mentor and she said to me, there's going to be an age, you know, at some point that they're not going to want you anymore. And for years, and I didn't have my mom during that time cuz I lost her early.
And for years, I'd be like, oh, I hope my key card works." Every time I walked into the news station. [laughter] I was scared. Oh, yeah. That day is going to come. Yeah.
And so I never got to a place until I got maybe in my late 40s, early 50s, and I went, "Well, I like this part of me. I actually feel a little freer than I did when I was 20 or 30." have that thought when she said, "You know, there's going to be a day that they don't want you" where you said, "No, there wasn't No, there won't be." No, not then. Okay. Isn't that crazy? Cuz I was I was so molded by the system which was an older man would sit next to a younger woman.
Exactly. the younger woman would [clears throat and snorts] be replaced when she got a wrinkle by another younger woman. [laughter] And another younger And so I saw that for so long. And then the guy would just sit there and age and look wiser. Yeah. Um so no, I didn't.
But when I walked away from my career 2 and 1/2 years ago, I was sitting next to a younger man. He was 10 years younger than me and I was the older woman which was really kind of cool, you know, but I never Wow. thought that that would have happened. Yeah. But I definitely understand that feeling that freedom. Yeah, definitely.
I want to talk about the uh songs. Is there one in particular that's your favorite right now? Like what what is the sound of a woman to you? Oh, the sound of a woman is [snorts] it's the sound of silence when you know, she wants to be saying something and then chooses to say something. But it's that silence right before she says something.
It's it's using your voice in most [snorts] purposeful way. It's humor. It's laughter. It's a sigh. It is it's a strength.
There's something about a voice that is coming into any kind of conversation that has earned the right to be there. Mhm. Is it hard sometimes to sit down and write? No. It Nothing's ever hard about it.
It's more like what would be hard is the patience that you have to have and sustain if ideas aren't coming. Mhm. And sometimes I can spend, you know, in a writing session 2 hours where we're just hanging out and we're talking. We haven't even started writing yet. Wow.
And then the song can tumble out. Um but sometimes it it's uh it can take longer, you know, days, sometimes weeks, sometimes, you know, you revisit it a few times, sometimes they come out right away. But um what I had to learn in the first part of songwriting when I first started writing was to actually use my voice and speak up with what my ideas were because I knew that the people I was writing with were so accomplished that I didn't have anything to back me up. I had my stories, I had my ideas, I had um lyrics, I had melodies, but I didn't I didn't know how to put those ideas forth. Mhm.
And then I started learning that there were no rules. Say whatever you want to say. Say there You could throw anything out there and they'd be great or you could say you could just be having a conversation and somebody said, "Oh, let's put that in the song." You'd be like, "Okay, write it down." I write longhand, you know, because I like I don't know, old school. But um but no, it it's just that that patience and that fear that comes when you're like, [gasps] "I'm empty. I am nothing.
I have nothing to say. That's scary. But then you understand that that is part of the process, too. I always think about that when I listen to words to songs. Like, how did they How did they think of those words?
Like, but you're right. If there's no rules, that's that's a different Exactly. That's a different way to do it. a miracle, though. Like, every time I go into writing session, I cannot believe it. I cannot believe that this song and these lyrics and this melody came out of the ether.
And here it is. Now there's a new song. What? How did that just happen? This song did not exist yesterday.
That's incredible to look at it. still blows my mind. [laughter] Well, one of the song Do you have a favorite, by the way? I Is that hard as like picking your favorite child? I would have to say, just because now it's it's on my mind a lot is Your Mother. Yeah.
I think that one uh you know, because it was really my co-writer's Amy Wadge on on nine of the 11 songs on the album. And we were having this conversation about our kids and do they really know us? Do they really know who we are? She has two daughters. I have three sons and a daughter.
And do they want to know us? You know, because they're born and they come into the world and they're like, "Oh, you're mom." And that's how they see you. Mom. And then as they get older maybe they start having some inkling that you are a person besides their mom. And and it was also about wondering if we really knew our own moms.
And you know, my mom was my best friend. Your mom passed away when you were still quite young. And I still have questions. I wish I could have asked my mom. And do you have questions you wish you had asked your mom?
I do. What are What are yours? Um she was my best friend and she lived till she was 93. So, uh even though she had Alzheimer's at the end, I still could I thought I had asked her everything. I asked her once, "If you had been educated in the United States, what would you have wanted to be for a living?" And she said a psychologist.
I thought that was really interesting. That's really interesting. Um I wanted to ask her really if she really was a virgin when she got married. [laughter] Cuz that That That That culture was like, you know, you had to be a virgin when you got married. said she was. Yeah, exactly.
But are they telling us the truth? know. I don't I always wondered that. they wanted us to be virgins? Like [laughter] my my you my mom I hear her head right now. She's talking to me. "You don't want to be a slut." [laughter] You're like, that's what something she would have said.
"You can't be a slut." I feel like our mothers know each other. you. [laughter] That's exactly It was my biggest fear. I'm like, Oh my god. My mom would say, "Your reputation is everything." I know. [laughter] People will know.
People No man will want you. I'm like, what? talk about you. And it was all about, you know, in Greek culture, don't bring shame on the family. You know, don't do that. So, um you know, stuff like that.
There was something that came up the other day. My mom had this poem on the kitchen wall called the Desiderata. It's a long poem. It's like not really prose. It's like a a poem.
It's really more like prose. And the first line of it, kind of new agey, right? During hippie days. But I think it's really old. Who knows?
But it said, "Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence." And then it went on. Uh the other day I have that now. After she died, I took it and it's in my office. and I thought why did that speak to her? Yeah. What was it about that that she was curious about that that spoke to her that said, "Yeah, I believe that." cuz it was in the kitchen.
She looked at it every day. So, I would like to ask her that. What were the questions you'd ask your mom? I think I would ask her about menopause because I always that was kind of this pivotal place in my life, you know, she was 51, and so after 51, I didn't have a road map really. Right.
But I didn't ever know what she went through. Like I know she suffered a lot. She was hot all the time, sweating, we couldn't go into restaurants, but she was sick and I and I was I always felt very sad cuz I think like we we all laughed about it together, but I think it was a lot of pain. Right. So, I think that's what I would ask her, and then I probably would have talked to her about having children.
Yeah. Cuz I didn't have children, and so I I think I would ask her more questions about that. Yeah. I've never I I've thought about it a little bit, and then sometimes you go there and I go, "I have to come back cuz it's hard." It's hard to think about those things, you know. Yeah, we talked earlier that she was able to see you graduate high school.
And did she see you go to college? She saw me go to college my first 2 years. Yeah, and she died right in the right in the middle of my right at the end of my sophomore year. Yeah. Yeah.
So, that was that's a blessing to me. It's a blessing. you things like because if she knew she was dying, was there stuff that she wanted you to know about her? Did she ever It's such a good question. any kind of advice or You know, she was sick and we would lay there together like in the in the ironic part cuz I was going to ask you about this is we would watch the Oprah show together. Mhm. Because that's what was on during that and that's what everybody did. 3:30. 3:30 every [laughter] day.
And we would just lay on the couch when she was sick and getting chemo and she didn't feel like she wanted to do anything, and I think then I knew like, "Oh, I can't make her feel guilty about not getting up and running us around like most other parents were doing." Right. And she said, "I think one day I'd love for you to, you know, do that. You could do that. That sounds like a fun job." Oh, wow. all those years, you know, I went went up becoming a I don't know if that's why. I feel like probably if you ask, you know, Wow. 10 therapists, that's probably why I became a journalist and a news anchor.
But yeah, yeah, so I think her advice, well, the virgin advice for sure. And then it was always like finding there was always advice about a man, like finding somebody that like loved you so much more than, you know, than than any anything else and was there for you. And and I think it was advice before it's time. Right. Cuz I was like, "I'm never getting married.
I'm going to Right. myself." I mean, I remember saying that cuz I thought, "If you're not here, I don't care about anybody." Right. [snorts] And yeah, so it's interesting to look at that. And so I'd be I always want to know, would she like my husband today? Yeah. Cuz I think she would have really loved him.
Oh, I bet she would have. the first one, but this one. Yeah, exactly. [laughter] Not the first one. Exactly. That that's hands down I don't need to ask her that.
Um you you have a song that also spoke to me on the album marriage, and I haven't had a a long marriage yet, um but I hope to. But you talk about marriage. Are there things in that song um that you've never said out loud before? Or do you say it differently? Yes, of course.
You know, like look, that that song is about the three different ages of marriage if you're in a long-term relationship. And for me, it's marriage. So what it's like in your 20s, in your 40s, and then in your 60s. And in your 20s, it's like this dream. Yeah.
I want to have a wedding, and my dress is going to look like this, and I want my ring to look like that, and this is how our wedding's going to be, and you know, here's who we're going to invite. And it's all about this planning, right? Yes. Yes. You don't think of it as like I'm going to be 60, 70, 80 years old with this person.
You're just like, no, it's about this party, right? We're planning a party. Yeah. Yeah. Then, now you're married 15, 20 years.
Now you're in your 40s. Maybe you have some kids and you're like, wow, okay, I did that. I was on that track. I did get married. I did have kids.
What happened to my work? What happened to my career? What happened to my voice? What happened to, you know, doing the things that I want to do? I put these things on pause and now how do I get back into it?
Mhm. And um it's funny because in in the song for that that 40s verse, I I put the line as if the husband is saying it, life begins at 40. And my mom used to say that, life begins at 40. Yeah. And she really loved it.
She really embraced her 40s. But for this song, I wanted to say, when somebody tells you that and you know, you're in the middle of like the hardest part of your like, nothing is working, nothing is going the way you want, you can't get the job you want, your kids are annoying you, and somebody says life begins at 40, you want to say, and that's a lie. [laughter] So true. If your husband says something to you like that, you literally want to strangle him. [laughter] You're like, those words, Rita?
I I think the lyric goes, he says life begins at 40, that's a lie. One minute you're in love with him, the next you wish he'd die. [laughter] But I say it laughing because I'm sorry, but every woman I know who's in a long-term relationship sometimes is just a little frustrated [laughter] cuz you know, you want to hear something else and they're like coming at it from a guy point of view. Like, it'll be fine. And you're like, you're not listening to me.
[laughter] And then you've got 60. And then you got 60s and 60s is like, "Whoa, we did it. Wow, we got through some stuff. And look, hey, let's go have another glass of wine. Let's go have some laughs and [gasps] that feels good.
What an accomplishment Mhm. to say we're still here with each other and we still like each other. We still choose each other. And we love to be together. That is really That's huge. Is there a to add another song in 20 years. going to say, "What happens at 80?" cuz we got We might need an 80 and a 100 at the rate we're all at the rate we're all going.
Exactly. It's like the What do they call it? The The The you know, the updated version of the song. That's fine. Exactly.
Like Taylor Swift's 10-minute version. We'll just keep going in marriage. [laughter] I think people would like that. Is there a secret to a long marriage from 20 to 60? Cuz those are a lot of years in between.
And you have What What is that that you have? to share a bathroom. [laughter] Okay. I'm not I'm not exaggerating. It's legit true. Why?
Think of it as the center, right? You're there in the morning getting ready. Your day is beginning. What are you doing today? I'm doing this.
I'm doing that. Okay, where are you going? I'm going to do that. Okay, and later what are you going to What are we doing for dinner? Are you going to come back here?
Yeah, I'll be back here. I'm making this. Okay, good. Blah blah blah. Then you have your dinner.
You come back. You, you know, watch something on TV. You getting ready to go to bed. Download the day. Oh my god, it was so great.
Did you see that thing? Somebody told me this today. Oh, I saw our best friend. She's doing great. Well, I don't know.
Oh, yeah, so did I. And it was just like, "Oh, I And I I saw one of the kids today and we did it." And you download the whole day, right? And I know a lot of people think of the dream is having two separate bathrooms. But I think the dream is a shared bathroom. And if you have space, two separate water closets.
So that, you know, you don't have to wait for someone. I love that advice. I don't think I've ever heard the shared bathroom. No, I love it. I really I Have you always had a shared bathroom?
Yeah. Really? Yeah, always. I love that. Yeah.
I love that. It's really, really good. But that's I mean, that's the jokey version. The other version is commitment. Wow, what a concept.
You actually got married and said, "I'm committing to you." For the rest of our lives, right? Now, I don't think everybody should stay married, especially if there's a lot of, you know, circumstances where people should not. But the thing about commitment is that it's basically the built-in structure that says, "You're going to work on this, right?" Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. [gasps] You got married in front of a bunch of this future to each other.
And I think there is something really important about recognizing that. Did that come from your parents when you married Tom? I I think it totally came from my own value system. Definitely my parents. I mean, Tom's parents were married like three or four times each, but I think he was also longing for something that felt stable like that, too.
And you had that in your family. Yeah, I had it. I had the role models, you know. Yes, you did. Can we touch on breast cancer just for a moment?
Um first, how are you doing? Great. I'm 11 years clean. I know, and I I love to hear that. Um talk about that diagnosis and where you are today and um going through that, if that changed something for you and what it changed for you.
Well, it changed everything for me. Um I I It's so ironic because for up until that time I had spent maybe 20 years supporting um the charity that I'm Tom and I have been involved with for years called the Women's Cancer Research founded now we're part of the Breast Cancer Research Fund. And I remember Penny Marshall the director saying you know, she was so funny cuz she was giving money to Alzheimer's she said she talked like this, I figure and I want to give money to something I might get one day. I never thought that I'd be giving something money to something I would get one day. I don't have breast cancer in my family and um it just was.
And um it's shocking to get the diagnosis. It's really scary but I learned one thing that you as scared as you are, you do keep moving forward. To get through it, right? So you get the diagnosis and in my case uh there really was only one way to deal with it which was bilateral mastectomy and reconstruction. And even then that I was thankful because that existed in my mom's generation her friends had breast cancer and that was it.
No reconstruction you're just left with this cavern. [clears throat] Um and so I was grateful that I could finally go Hollywood and get some implants, you know, that [laughter] felt good. And um but also I learned so many things about myself about my body, about the ability that our bodies have to heal and and that song on the album called um whose body is this is is about many things but that's also one of the things. It's like your body can heal you as well, right? Your doctors and your body it wants you to survive.
It really does. And um and I really appreciated the value of art and the value of entertainment and poetry and all the things that creative people do because you learn quickly that that's what you gravitate towards and you need it. You don't want anything else. You want that. And um it made me feel like there was more that I could say creatively than I had been saying.
And about I was doing a play on Broadway at the time with Larry David called Fish in the Dark. And I had to leave the play for a month and then I went back to the play. And when I went back to the play, I realized how exhausted I was and how tired I was. But I had this mindset like, "No, I'm I'm doing this and I'm going through the surgery and then I'm going to take the time off and then I'm going to go back to the play and it's going to be over." But I wasn't prepared for like about 4 or 5 months after it hit me. When I finally could relax and go, "Whoa, what did I just go through?" Wow.
And really understand that it was big. You know, you're dealing with mortality. You're dealing with what's going to happen to the kids? Am I going to make this? Like you know, they they give you these things, you know, if you get 5 years clean, then 7 years clean, then 10 years clean, then you're kind of out of the woods.
And that's really what what it was like. And so I experienced um a period of anxiety like I just couldn't stop thinking that it was going to come back. And I found something that was so helpful and so great called cognitive behavioral therapy. It is scientifically proven to work and it basically teaches you how to stop thought looping, become aware of your thoughts, how to stop the thought looping, and replace it with a better thought so that you actually change your neural pathways and how your your thoughts will imprint. And that was huge and I found a great doctor.
It took He said, "This won't take long. It'll be 3 to 4 months and you'll be fine." I was like, "What?" I had never had a any kind of a therapist or doctor say anything like that and he was accurate and it worked and I highly recommend it for anybody who's going through any anxiety-related, you know, issues. Well, I feel like a lot of women want to hear those kind of answers and and which you do because there's a lot of it going on no matter what age you are and what you're dealing with. Yeah. Rita, what's next for you?
What's next? I'm going on tour. I'm going on tour in June. I'm going on tour with my new album. I'm so excited to play these things live cuz you make them and you know, we have strings and we have choirs and we have all these beautiful voices and I wanted to share that with people.
So, that's in June and then in the fall I'll be touring in Europe and then hopefully more dates on the West Coast and also back on the East Coast. to come find you. Oh, please do. I'll be here in New York on June 13th, I believe. Okay, I'm going to figure out how to I am going to do that. I'm going to come and find you.
Yes. Great. I would love that. I think you're really special. Oh, thank you.
Thank you so much. I loved our conversation. Me, too. Thank you. Thank you, Tamsen.
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