Imposttor syndrome. So, we have all heard about it and let's be honest, we've all felt it. That little voice in your head saying, "You don't belong here. You're not good enough. Everyone's going to find out that you're a big fraud." Imposter syndrome is a lie.
It is a trick to make you feel that you are not good enough. My next guest on The Tamsen Show, Reshma Saujani, is a powerhouse. She is a founder of Girls Who Code who has taught millions of girls the skills they need to thrive in tech and recently founded Mom's First, where she's fighting for affordable child care and paid leave. She's a best-selling author, a TED speaker, and a trailblazer who has spent her career challenging those narratives that hold women back. No one just lets us in.
I think work life balance has impeded women's progress because you're like, "Wait, what the I don't feel any balance here." So, even if you've ever doubted yourself, felt like you don't belong, or wondered if it's too late to reinvent yourself, this conversation is for you. I know this sounds weird, but like I actually enjoy Now, let's get started. Let's welcome Reshma Saujani to The Tamsen Show. First of all, it's so good to see you. It's so good to see you, too.
I'm thrilled to have you here. You always make me think like you come into a room and we have a conversation that is so I I think for days after we talk. I really do. Well, I'm so excited that we met and Joanna introduced us and we've become friends and I'm so excited about everything you're doing. Me, too.
I' I've I follow what you have going on. I've listened to a lot of things you've done before we met and so I want to talk about some of that. But we want to talk about imposttor syndrome today or the fact that you don't believe in it. You don't believe in imposter syndrome, right? No.
Why? It keeps women from achieving their fullest potential. Like if I'm in a room, any room, and I ask, "How many of you have not done something because of imposter syndrome?" Literally every hand is raised. Wow. So the amount of dreams that are deferred, the amount of businesses that never get started, the amount of podcasts that never get started, the amount of like promotions that never get asked for because of this imposttor syndrome is just wild.
And so I I realized that I was there was something there when I was actually on Steven Bartlett's podcast and I told the story that I've been telling forever about how I was asked to speak at Bill Gates's summit, right? And I'm invited to speak at Bill Gates Summit. And the woman who calls me to invite me is like, "Listen, we normally don't have a lot of women give keynotes here because it's really intimidating." And Warren and Bill are in the front row, but we think that you would be great for this. And I'm like, "Of course, bring it on." And I remember I'm like sitting there backstage and I'm like, "Damn, like I only have 8 minutes. I wish I had 12." And I'm like, "How did I become this woman?" Because you know, Tamsen, I wasn't always that way.
I grew up in Shamberg, Illinois, went to public high school, went to University of Illinois. I wasn't around people with fancy degrees. And and I was the girl that when I finally applied to Y Law School after three times and got in, and I would sit in my constitutional law class, I would never raise my hand because I felt like everybody around me was smarter than me, more qualified than me, and that I had snuck in the door, which I hadn't. Lucky to be there. Lucky to be there and it silenced me.
And so I always overthought my potential, my voice. And it wasn't until I got the opportunity to start and found Girls Who Code and be the CEO that I had been in so many rooms with so many powerful men. And after meeting all of them, I remember thinking, "You're running what?" Like like I say like me and my girls can run circles around you. Like I wish that that knowledge that I had I used to always say I wish I could bottle it up and like give it to all my girls who code to like so you could understand far earlier in your career that you always were prepared enough that you were always qualified enough that you all that they didn't have anything on us. We could sit here all day and say where that comes from.
Right. But when you say I wasn't always that girl. So how did you get to be that girl? I mean, I think I got to be that girl by recognizing by quite frankly meeting the people who I thought were smarter or more qualified than me and recognizing that they're not and also recognizing that like I had fallen into victim of the cottage industry that is teaching women like you know to build your confidence to just to power pose to like get another skill to read another book right to like that you are never enough and I think this narrative that somehow how as women, as people of color, we've snuck in the door. Yeah.
That someone has lowered the bar for us. And I think being a CEO, being someone who hires people, being in these rooms, being on these boards of Harvard or MoMA, it's like I am like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no. One just lets us in. We have to cra crawl, fight, push our way in." I always get so frustrated when I hear people like, "Oh, can you believe she's done this and this?" I'm like, "No, because she worked her ass off to do that." And so I I I look at that and I say, "You're right. The imposter syndrome is really it's not a thing.
That's that is not a thing. What do we call it though instead?" Because we do have that. I mean, I have had that before where I, you know, I tell a story of getting up on a stage and feeling like in front of Martha Stewart and I thought, "Oh my gosh, everyone's so much." And after this speech, they came up to me saying they were so they were so excited about the speech and it made them cry. And I thought, wait, what? So that was me thinking I had imposter syndrome.
Not necessarily what that was. Yeah. So first of all, I think there's anxiety when you are the only one, right? I agree with that completely. And that's a natural feeling.
I feel that way when I'm in a boardroom and it's mostly men and I'm the only woman and when I'm about to raise my hand and ask a question and like you kind of sometimes see that blank look, right? I'm like, "Oh, do they think I'm stupid? Do I belong?" Do you still think that now? I of course because I still think it's like any It's like when you're meditating, do the thoughts still come? Yes, they do.
Right. So you still I think cuz it's so ingrained in us to feel like we don't belong that we are not smart enough that we are not good enough that we are imposters that of course that comes and then I have to be like oh let me recognize it for what it is. Let me tell you ts that would help me get there. I'm a history nerd and anytime I hear like my girlfriends do like any kind of negative talk I always like all right what's that about? Again I start hearing all of us talk about imposter syndrome feeling that way myself and I'm like wait when did imposter syndrome start where did it come from?
And so what I learned is that imposttor syndrome, you know, came in the 1970s. So in the 1970s it was a bellweather decade for women. Title 9, Roie Wade, right? We got control over our reproductive rights. Women started entering the workforce in droves.
There was a shift in the culture. There was a shift in the workplace of more and more and more women coming in. At that time is exactly when this term comes up except it's called imposttor phenomenon. And it was actually used and created to kind of describe white women. Phenomenon turns into syndrome.
Now, anytime you put you're you you know you interview doctors all the time, so you recognize this. When you call something a syndrome, we immediately think, oh, that's biological. It's inevitable, right, that I'm going to I can't help it. Most women think imposttor syndrome is kind of like that. It's biolog.
Inevitable that women that I am going to feel this way at some point in my life. That's why it's so universal going back to the fact that every woman will essentially raise their hand and say, "I experienced this and it prevented me from actually taking a step." So, I think it's really important when we see these things in particular for women and for people of color to recognize when did that term h start and what context did it start in? And so I always look for what I call the cons. And imposter syndrome very much falls into it becoming popularized in culture at a time of a tremendous amount of women's progress. Anytime you see women's progress, right, you will see essentially a backlash to that.
We're seeing it right now. It's so funny when we we've always said, you know, history repeats itself. We know that. But it's always interesting to me to see how it's repeating itself within each one of our lives. Whether it comes to imposter syndrome or it comes from being a mom, it comes from midlife, menopause.
There's so many different places that that I see that backlash. You know, I call it in midlife. It's like the midlife penalty. And you see it essentially like you know the biggest gender pay gap is actually for women over age 50 because we feel like either you know you're going to have all these caregiving responsibilities or you're going to be experiencing menopause employers like it's not worth it. We don't we don't we don't want to hire women over 50.
We don't want to promote that. And you see it with health as you know as the expert kind of in this field of like why is it that we don't invest in women's health and we haven't talked about investing in women's health. We don't talk about it. I posted about this. I had a breast cancer scare about a month ago and you know I went and got my daily you know breast exam.
I have dense breast. They said okay we think we see something. Come back came back for the ultrasound like okay we need to do a biopsy just to be sure. And you know like any of us have a lot of things going on in our schedule. So I was like okay do I need to take something?
Do I need to take the day off? They're like no no no you'll be fine. It's a little pinch. You're good. Now, as someone who's had a handful of DNC's and miscarriages and all all the fertility stuff, that's exactly what they say about C-sections, about DNC's, right?
It's a pinch because you'll be fine because they are doing it all the time. So, of course, you know, I get my biopsy. It is not a [ __ ] pitch. It's not a pinch. Okay.
I have a fundraising meeting and a panel, you know, that I'm going to speak at and I'm of course don't cancel anything. Yeah. Brutal. It It's so painful. Your breast is like Yep.
You know, so I mean it is excruciating actually. Like you should not just take one day off. You should take a handful of days off. And the point is is like we do not value women's pain and we do not invest the amount that we have to invest in women's health and women's research. I mean listen if men had to do that they'd be like take a month off dude you and so the point is is that and if these experiences are happening to you in your 40s and your 50s at some point you're like [ __ ] it.
Yep. You know, and you you pull back from your from your dreams, from your aspirations. And I think imposttor syndrome falls into that same bucket because you're like, if I'm never going to feel like I belong, if I'm always going to feel like I'm a fraud, imagine you're already showing up at work every day and you think that like you don't belong there, that you are not good enough, you know, that you are not worthy and you're going through pmenopause and now it's now it's biologically making you feel like that. Now it's just one thing on top of a whole bunch of other things. And I think that the interesting about imposter syndrome, it's not something that you feel when you're young and it goes away.
No, it intensifies. It intensifies. And so I really believe Tamsen like those words that we use that to me like I think work life balance has impeded women's progress because you're like wait what the [ __ ] I don't feel any balance here. I must be how do I do that? I'm doing I must be doing something wrong.
And so I think, you know, we as women, you know, I mean, we need to all come together for like a house party and be like, "All right, let's let's go into the dictionary and find all the words that have impeded women's progress, that have prevented us from actually living our fullest potential, and let's stop using them." So, you delivered a commencement speech in 2023, Smith College, and you referenced bicycle face. Bike face. Bike face. I have these little bicycles all over my house now that people send me bicycle face for people that don't know. So when the bicycle came out, you know, it had like one big wheel in the front and one tiny wheel in the back.
So if you're riding it, you would tip over. And when the bicycle also came out, you know, it wasn't just used by men, but it was used by women. And it was used by women during the 1920s in the suffrage movement, you know, to go from like town to town to town. And they would have fixed their little suffrage signs to the front. They no no longer needed a man to like pull up with a horseback and give them a ride.
Like it gave them freedom. It built the movement. And as people saw that happening, people what you saw happen was this term bike face come out. And because you would tip over, bike face was a term used like your face is flushed. You know what I mean?
You are like, you know what I mean? You're red, you're unattractive. And you would see these posters. And so it was used as a tactic to deter women from riding their bike. It was used as a tactic to deter women from making progress to get the right to vote.
And so to me, bike face is just like imposttor syndrome also used as these medical terms at a moment of enormous progress of women as a deterrence of that progress and it worked. The con the con works that is how we got here in all aspects of it. Whether we're talking about work, we're talking about relationships, we're talking about physical pmenopause, menopause, which we'll get to. Girls Who Code. Yeah.
Mom's first, running for office. You've done some big big things. When you when you look at all of those things, is there a throughine with all of them of, you know, how you said this is this is what I want or need to do or there's a space that needs to be filled here that I have to I just have to I'm waking up in the morning and I have to do this. I have to start, you know, girls who code. I have to help these young girls out.
I have to help moms. What was that beginning notion of that idea? So, it's funny as you mentioned, I think as I've gotten older, I'm like look back at my life and I used to think it was a jumble of lots of different careers. But when I actually now think about it, I've always been doing the same thing. And I think when you get to a certain point in your career, especially if you are a hustler, if you are ambitious, right, if you like that's what like I am driven I'm a workaholic.
I am driven by work. I am driven me too by output. And you do get to a certain place because our things are happening with your age. I have two young children, right? My parents are getting older.
Like my body just doesn't work the same way. I can't take two red eyes in a row. That you start to say, is this what it's about? Is this what my life is about? Is this what it's supposed to be about?
Is this truly making me happy? And at that moment, I really started going inward more. I have a standing meeting with a monk every two weeks. And I, you know, have deepened my relationship with God. And what I realized in this kind of journey is that like my gift and it's always been my gift is my voice, is my ability to communicate.
And because of like my parents came here as refugees, I've always like when I see people getting taken advantage of, hurt, it just creates a like a like a fury in me, like a swell. Yeah. And I just I just stand up and fight. And I've always been that way, you know. And like I I remember I always say I grew up as, you know, a brown family like in a very kind of white working-class neighborhood where there weren't a lot of Indians.
One time someone had like put on the side of our house, go back to your own country. And my father that morning when I woke up, I saw him kind of just almost like humming a Bollywood tune just cleaning the side of the house. And I remember looking at him being like, I will never be you. And I say this with respect, but like for a certain generation and certain people, it is not natural for them to go fight, to stand up and speak. That's always been in me and that's always been like my gift.
And so I think that like I have always used that gift that I've been given from him, you know, to fight in particular for women and for girls. So whether it was Girls or Code, whether it's Mom's First, whether it's Brave Not Perfect, whether now it's Women in Midlife, it's kind of like really been a constant for me. Like I've been doing the same thing. No, I know. I love that because I see that through line in there.
And so that's why I was wondering I'm wondering if if that was something that you knew was kind of a through line or you've discovered that now and you're saying you discovered it. I think I've discovered it and I think often times now that you know it's your voice that's your gift because it is it really is your gift. It how you talk your cadence your understanding of people how you listen. I mean it is I'm a short time but I know that. No, I appreciate and I I think you have that gift too and I think it's I think the ability to take something one I think that's universal right like when I when I shared my breast biopsy story or I share you know my own insecurities my failure losing for office other people like oh my god I feel this way too and you make people feel seen and not alone that is very very very important I think for our society and especially in this moment where people feel an enormous amount of loneliness.
I think the second thing is is the ability to speak truth to power. Like to me, like what's the point of having power? What's the point of having a platform if you're not going to use it? Not just for good, but to say the things that other people can't. I get into trouble all the time because I stand up to bullies.
Yeah. Whether it's a company, whether it's a politician, whether it's, you know, somebody online. And and I recognize not everybody has the ability to do that. So sometimes like when I say something like I was, you know, that's like uncomfortable like when you first did that menopause episode and nobody was talking about it and you knew people don't want to hear about that right now. That was brave.
Not everybody can do that. And so if you know that you have the ability to do that, whether it's in your workplace, whether it's in your community, whether it is on TV, you need to do it. It's a responsibility to do it almost. And I also think this I also think you can't help yourself but do it. Like I don't think I ever thought through, oh gosh, what's going to happen if I mean I think I did a few times when I came onto social media thinking like, oh boy, the bosses are going to see this and I wonder if I'm out of a career.
And then I realized like, wait, there's so many more women that need to hear it than that don't like to hear it. But those people that don't like to hear it, they just don't matter or they're going to they're going to listen. It is scary to be brave. It's scary to be the only one. It's scary to be the only one.
It's scary to be attacked. It's scary. It's still like I think we're still invariably good girls and we care. We want to be liked. I do.
I do. There there was a book a long time ago, good girls don't get ahead, but gutsy girls do. That's what it was by Kate White. I read that when I was really young and I'm like I need to I'm gutsy but I'm I'm more of a good girl right now, you know? And then I realized like well I don't think so.
But it took a long time to understand what that because I read it when I was very young and I was just in my career in television just getting in there and wanting everyone to like me and making sure I was the team player with and I still want that in the back of my my head. But I also know what's right for me. And and I think you're right. As we get a little bit older and look back and look ahead, by the way, like I'm in the I'm in that middle place, you know, where I look back and I'm real grateful, but I also look ahead at what else is there. And so, and I think that that what's ahead is much more important.
And look, I think it's tricky. I think it's Look, it is absolutely harder to be gutsy when you're 20. Totally. Because you do, you know, we you do have to sometimes still play the game. Like I tell my my 21-year-old niece that all the time.
It is absolutely easier when you're 70 to be like, "No [ __ ] given." Oh, totally. Sometimes I can't wait. Sometimes I can't wait to be able to say that and not care. I And I was actually I was talking to Johanna this morning and I'm like, do you think that Martha Stewart was always like this or do you But I went back and I looked at the doctor. I kind of think she was always like that.
So I was and I'm going to have to grow into my She paid a price for it. She did. She paid a price. She paid the price for it. And I think I've had to learn and I I'm is like I don't always have to engage in this fight.
It might not be the right time. Okay. And then sometimes I'm like, "Oh, yes, I am. Now it is." And I think it's like there is that that it's that wisdom of like having the experience both of your past and your future and saying, "When's the right time and the right moment?" And I think sometimes especially when you're fighting for other people, right? Yeah.
Well, you want to also do it the right way, too. So, it's it it's meaningful and not just loud, right? You want it to mean something. It's not just so you can have a voice in the, you know, the a voice in the fight. We talk about wisdom when we talk about looking forward and back.
And I like the fact that you've become more introspective or looking in more. And I feel like myself doing that a few years ago. I I was waking up every day going, and this was before I even was talking about menopause. I was waking up going, "Now what?" Like, "Now, now what?" Like, I'm here. And I think it was similar to what I heard hear you say, which is this it?
Yeah. You know, and I and I don't know where the voice came from. I just I kept saying it over and over and I couldn't get an answer. And everybody I would talk to, I would be like, well, so what do you what's next for you? Or what do you I wanted somebody to give me an answer.
I was like that little, you know, duck that was like, cuz are you my mama? Somebody tell me what to do next. And and that's why I think this time is so fascinating and maybe why you're the same way I am about midlife. I just feel very I want to know everything there is about it. There's not a lot out there about it.
There's not a lot of roadmap. It can be really frustrating. I know that you've got a a fun birthday coming up. Not a big birthday, a fun birthday of turning 50. How are you feeling about it?
You know, I am feeling better. Like, I'll be honest. Before I part of why I started my podcast, My Soul Club Midlife, cuz I was like, I'm [ __ ] miserable. Like, I feel like my best parts of my career are over. I don't know what's ahead.
I don't like the way I look in the same way, you know, like my I'm, you know, my hair is getting thinner. I'm getting more wrinkles. It's harder to keep the weight off, right? I don't feel as strong, you know, like when I run, you know, 5 miles, I if I don't foam roll, like I'm I'm done. I felt like my relationships with friends were like you shed more friends the older you get.
You can't make new friends in the same way. And so, and I was like, every day was Groundhog's Day. I was feeling really bored and I realized a lot of people around me felt exactly the same way. And that's why they were blowing up their lives, right? Whether it was like getting a divorce, moving to an ashroom, like and and so that's why I started the podcast to really get one to like get you know advice on the you know some of the tactical things whether it's divorce whether it's should I take psychedelics you know whether it's like how do I make new friends to like people in their 50s like Julia Louie Drifus you know or yeette brown or Chelsea Handler like who are who are actually crushing it right and one of the things that was so interesting it's almost like every single person I've interviewed didn't feel the way I felt.
Interesting. They're like, "Oh, this is the best time of my life." Like midlife is a mindset. And so I think after doing all of these interviews and having all these conversations, that's also shifted for me. Like last week, you know, we were on break and I was at the beach in Mexico. And normally when I go to the beach, you know, I'm staring at all these like 20-year-old girls with their badass bikinis and their fit bodies, and I'm like, I wish one just one night, you know what I mean?
Like, put me in like a time machine. Just one night to know what it felt like to be 20 and free. Yeah. And and it was the first time that I didn't feel that way. Isn't that nice?
And I was like like I was like loving where I'm at. All of the imperfections becoming her. Yeah. The women that you've looked at. Yeah.
And it it felt so I'm not fully there you know but I definitely am on like I'm on that I'm on that journey and I'm also like you know I feel like women have been again sold a con and so so much of like I told you I watched baby girl last night and it's like you know for so long all the representations you saw of women quite frankly over 40 where they were haggarded and old and tired and bitter and angry and they weren't hot and they weren't sexy and they weren't attractive Ive and so you're seeing a shift in culture from like Demi Moore to Nicole Kidman and really shifting again what it what it like it's hot to be 50 it's hot to be a mom like it's you know what I mean it's it is and it's funny cuz it's also very it's a very American thing like if you go to Brazil if you go to India like it it's not this they actually revere women they're like the older they get so it's a very distinctly American cultural thing. And you know, when I when I re started researching this, it's it's also been like the first plastic surgery was done in the 1900s, it's like you just couldn't sell [ __ ] You couldn't sell Botox or fillers or creams or, you know, weight loss drugs if you actually didn't convince women that the mirror should work in the reverse. So like to me turning ourselves on to that, like it's so funny. We look at Pamela Anderson without her makeup and we're like she is badass, but like that's bravery. I know.
I know. Men don't walk around brave. They don't walk around brave cuz they don't have makeup on. So So it's just like I and and I do think if we can unlock this and I think the work you're doing with menopause because that's a part of it like it's hard to if you feel like [ __ ] you can't change this other aspect. You've got to have control somewhere, right?
And I think that has to start with that that physical feeling, you know, better better about your your body and how it aches and and that I can't go to the gym with all those things that you listed. I was like, "Oh gosh, I remember all those things." And I and I had gone through a divorce in my 40s and then hit menopause and then didn't know what was going on and was on camera. So that, you know, gives itself its own whole thing about, you know, fear and and aging in front of a camera, which was a big part of my my my earlier life. And I think I feel the same way you do. I don't think I I totally feel, you know, like I have no more, you know, no more Fs to give.
Like I don't I don't ne necessarily think I go all the way that way. But I do feel that I don't know how to explain it. It's like a feeling of relax for a second. Like you got nothing to prove. I got nothing to prove.
And so every once I have to remind myself of that and then I have to remind myself if I don't accomplish whatever that thing is on that timeline that what's the worst that could happen? Like I I have to give my I have to do that to myself to be able to breathe. Yeah. And so, but that's come with time and I do want to go back to those days every once, you know, one day of the my 26-year-old, you know, belly ring on the beach walking around like not a care in the world. But then I really also like where I am today, you know, and I I do like the the real relationships I have.
Like I like I understand you immediately when we first spoke, we first met. Like I got you immediately and I felt really good when I left there because I was like, "Wow, somebody else that gets me." And I didn't really understand the importance of community or any of that stuff for a long time. I was just a workaholic. You know, one of the things you just remind like made me think about like it to me when I was at 20 girl with the belly wing on the beach. Didn't have a belly ring but on the beach.
I I had the belly ring for us. I it wasn't just about the way I looked. It was my excitement about what is possible. Oh yeah, of course. And I think what is hard for women in midlife is you don't you think it's if you didn't do it it's done.
And so to me having more examples of women who actually began the height of their career when they were in their 40s or their mid50s. I think having that excitement that like there like my best years are actually ahead of me is really really really important and I think what we need and we just don't ha like culturally we don't put a lot of those examples forward. Mhm. No, we don't. I mean I don't think we had them for a long time or if we had them we just didn't talk about them because they were they were the only ones or they weren't even talking about them.
Right. You didn't have the Demi Moore speech of basically being like I was everyone told me I was, you know, a popcorn actress and I I kept I knew that there was something left. And so many of us have that feeling like I I feel like I actually haven't done my best work yet. I really feel that way. And people are probably like, "What do you mean?" I'm like, "You've done such kick-ass work.
I can't even imagine." But I don't feel like And my psychic backs me up. He's like, you know what I mean? Like you're a late bloover. And I love that. It's so when I wake up in the morning, I kind of like I bound out of bed.
All right, what's coming? You know, like what's in my inbox? What like what things are coming my way? You know, what exciting projects are happening or what like? And I think that that I want to give that to women.
Well, I think younger women need it, too, because I don't want them to hear our conversation about permenopause and menopause and be like, "Oh my gosh, it's so scary." So, I try to make sure that that feels like a little more powerful than u weak and and meek and like this is it and this is what you've got to look forward to. So, work really hard before you get there and and it's all over. It's all going to suck. You know, you're going to be invisible and not relevant. Okay.
So, I want to do a couple of things because I want to make sure we we've had a lot of questions about this about reinvention, about how you start over, how you get unstuck, imposter syndrome, all that stuff. And I also want to break down kind of these first steps to breaking free from the mindset so people don't think it's going to take them five years to figure that out. But I want to start with this because we got this from a listener, Melissa out of Dallas, 48. I feel like this is me. I could have written, you know, left her corporate job 20 years trying to figure out what's next.
Here's what she wrote. I spent my whole life following the rules, climbing the corporate ladder, being the dependable one at work at home. Now I'm starting this new chapter, but I feel lost. And I keep asking myself, what if I'm not good enough to do something new and fail? I know I shouldn't think like this, but imposttor syndrome is holding me back from even trying.
How do I begin? So I always say, so I felt when I started Girls Who Code, I had come from a failed congressional candidate. I had like I was broke. I had put all my money into this campaign and not working for your I was humiliated. Like I was like the laughingstock of like Do you think you were?
Oh, no. No. I definitely was. Like you should because why? Well, I mean, if you look at stories like I I that were out there, it was just like it was it was rough.
Like it was rough and like in my heart I thought I was going to win, right? And I told everybody that. So I think I think and and listen, I think at that time and it's still this way like in politics they don't they say they want new blood, but they don't want new blood and so they really try to squash you. So the day after my loss, somebody was calling me being like you did a great job. You raised $1.3 million and had Jack Dorsey and John Legend and like created this big movement.
What's next? No, there was no phone call. There was no pickup. And that's hard. That's hard.
But my point is is like I I as in that experience saw my vision for girls who code because I would go into these classrooms and it was like all boys learning how to code and no girls. And so but in from that perspective, I could it wasn't the moment where you would think someone would be like, "Oh, I'm going to build a movement." Mhm. But I was like, I'm going to take 20 girls and I'm going to put them in a classroom and I'm going to teach them how to code. I'm not going to build a movement. I'm not going to build a nonprofit.
I'm going to do a little pilot. So, and I'm going to tell everybody about it. So, like my advice when you're feeling like an impostor or I'm afraid to fail is to take identify one step that is doable. Mhm. Mhm.
And then tell everybody about it cuz I think the thing with us as women, it's like it is important for us to hold other people, have other people hold us accountable. So when you start talk and then you will also find people who will want to help you. I love that advice because I think that sometimes what we do is think we can't tell people anything successful until it's until it's perfect, right? We hide our dreams. Hide our dreams because we assume that there isn't a community there that wants to hold us and help us actually achieve those dreams.
Make those introductions. Write a $200 check for your, you know, investment. Like do that thing. I think the second thing I would say to her too is that like I told you like the imposttor syndrome is a lie. It is a trick to make you feel that you are not good enough.
So imagine any other thing in your life where you feel like you have been told something or that is was was there to actually impede your progress and your growth. This is that thing. So what do you do with it though when it comes into your mind like oh I'm not good enough. It's not quick enough. It's not I do think starting in that small way and not trying to be up here and telling people is brilliant.
I think it's I think it's like when it comes to your mind accept that it's normal to feel afraid. It's normal to feel scared. To leave something that you've done for so long and to do something new is scary. I feel scared every single time I launch a new thing. I'm sure you do, too.
I called you telling you I was. I said, "I have this idea, but I don't know what to do and I don't know what it is. Is it something?" Of course. But so that feeling of feeling scared is normal. Okay.
But then what is what what I think you want to like divorce that from is this feeling that you are not good enough to go do that thing that you are an impostor. And it's okay if you're the only one too. That doesn't make you an imposttor if you're the only one. I think that's a big deal. So recognizing it, normalizing it, and realizing that we've been tricked into believing that we're not we're not supposed to be there.
We're not that girl. Like if you say when when imposter syndrome comes up and you're like, "Yeah, it is scary for me to walk into my boss's office and ask for that promotion. It is scary for me to start this new thing." That's normal to feel scared. Everyone feels scared. It will go away.
I like when you talk about bravery over perfection because that's I think what you're talking about the very beginning, starting it small, not trying to make a movement, not trying to not trying to perfect it before you go out there with it. Yeah. I think bravery is something I've I've realized now in midlife that I have that I didn't know I probably had when I was younger. I thought that I was just working, you know, I was just my head was down like I was head was down working really hard. Now I feel I can see some of those brave moments and I give myself a pat on the back for him, you know, instead of trying to get it all figured out right away.
And bravery is fun. Like I always think gosh I always would say I always say I don't want everything right now. I don't I don't but also like I get a high out of failing. I know this sounds weird but like I actually enjoy rejection. And here's the thing.
You don't learn if you don't fail. And like if you look at an athlete, if you look at anybody that is in anything that's like a competitive sport, it is that shot I miss. Shot I miss. Shot I miss. Shot I miss is how you get really great.
And if I'm going to have one lifetime to like make the world a better place, I want to be [ __ ] great at it. But that means I have got to make mistakes and I have got to fail and I have to put myself out there and I have to put myself in uncomfortable positions. So I think we have to build the muscle of doing that. It is uncomfortable to ask somebody for help. Uncomfortable to say, "Hey Tamsen, will you introduce me to soand so?" you know, or hey Tamsen, can I come on your podcast or you know, whatever that thing that makes because, you know, the thing is is that women, we don't like to ask for help.
Well, why is that? Because I I have had since I I left my job over a year ago now, I have a tough time still asking for help. I think I told you that. I think I I said I'm not comfortable picking up the phone and I did that with you and I was like, can we just talk for a second? I have this idea and it was it's one of very few times that I was like, oh, it was was so wellreceived.
But but it is. Why is that? Because you don't want to impose on someone, right? We're taught to from the time we're little, literally from the time we're 8 years old to be good girls, to be nice, we to take care of others and to not ask for anything for ourselves. I think the second thing I really do think that we feel like if I tell you my biggest dream or my biggest aspiration that you will take it from me.
You think that? Yeah. Like a a fear then? Yeah. Like I think we're going to get stolen.
It's going to get stolen or it's going to get laughed at or it's going like that that that the immediate reaction from and will be jealousy and envy. And look, there is some truth to that because I think part of why we are still fighting for our reproductive rights that we are still fighting for like basic things is we don't have community in America amongst women. We don't have solidarity amongst we still think there's one spot for one of us. If your podcast is great, that means my podcast can't be great. So I'm not going to tell you anything about what I learned about doing something successful.
And that is what is stopping us. So like to me my you know my revolt around that is to be as generous as hell. Take all of it. Take all my contacts, my relationships, my knowledge, my information because I feel like if you succeed, I will succeed. And I think that that's that's part of that too.
And men don't operate that way. You know, it's funny. I think they often times also rally around like if if if so and so can become president that means I can too and then they're friends with them and then they're friends they tell each other how much they make and what it takes and blah blah blah blah they see abundance they do see abundance way more than we do my husband never understands and I'm like I can't I I had this idea and he goes yeah but there's a lot of and I go yeah right so it's almost like he has to remind me that it's you know not not that I'm enough but that there is enough. But you live your life that way because I feel like I you interview every woman that's in menopause. Like you know what I mean?
You're you there's a lot of spirit of generosity around your work and I which is why I'm so happy these days. Like I like that feeling. Don't you like that feeling? Oh my god. I get a high out of hooking a girl up.
I love it. I think it's to me also it's just because I know there were women who did that for me. Hillary Clinton did that for me. Like there were people who've all like in my career I am here because I stand on the shoulders of so many women so many journalists who wrote about the things that I was talking about so many women who wrote me my first check like so to me anytime I get an opportunity to do that now look it's hard to always answer every call and every text and every email but I look for ways to several times a year change somebody's life. I see you do it, you know, like I and it makes me and my husband and I live both live our lives this way as a team.
It like we act with so much generosity of spirit. Mhm. I think that's something that we have to continue to teach by example. And I also think teaching younger women as they're coming up into this because I feel like there's so much input much more than I ever had of all these things coming at them all different ways and not really being able to decipher what's going not not only what's most important but what's going to make them feel that most fulfilled and bound out of bed every day because there's a lot of pressure out there for young girls. Yeah.
I mean and look, I think that this generation often times is not moved by the same things that we were moved by. And you know, it's it's fascinating. I think this whole influencer culture, everybody thinks that that's the way to kind of like be successful, make money, be seen. Yeah, it's exhausting. If I never had to do social media, I'd be so freaking happy.
I get it. I get it. It's a means to an end. It is. And I I I think what I do like though about it, I would never have reached these women and understood what what they needed in menopause and permenopause and the help and the access.
So, that part I really enjoy, but I feel like I I don't know. I didn't have this community. Well, you know what? It's so funny. Like I was when I was in Mexico, I had three women.
It was I was there for 20 minutes and it was the most powerful like I had three different women come up to me, you know, when I was in the Starbucks line when I was buying a toy for and just say thank you. Oh wow. And you're right. So what I So when I say like so for me for social media it's like I do it on my terms and I'm not producing content to produce content for the sake of it because you have to feed the beast. Problem is is like kind of got to feed the beast to grow.
Yeah. No, you're right. You're right. It's a delicate balance. You and and it's funny.
I have the same thing when I when somebody comes up and does that. Somebody I was in Miami and and this young girl hung her head out the window and she was like, "Tam." And then she put her fist up in the air and she's like, "I'm in pmenopause." Like it was very like at this empowered movement. And I just went and then she just drove off. And so my husband's like, "What did she say?" And I said, "She said she's in penmenopause." And he goes, "Did you say something? Like were you putting your hand?" I was like, "No, it wasn't." It was just really cool though.
I thought that was really cool. And it means that we're not embarrassed by those words and we're we're seeing them and learning about them and understanding about them. And I I hope shaping them and looking at them differently. And I think personally like this is [ __ ] hard work. It is it is like I have given my body, my life, my soul to this work.
And I used to feel for a long time I was it was very important for me to be humble. I am very disciplined about ego balancing, not letting it influence and not letting it right be like like and my my you know Rosenoth my teacher was like no no no no no like this is kind of like the universe thanking you and so take that take in that that love and and it will help fuel you in your moments of exhaustion and feeling like okay like because here here's the thing I think with a lot of these issues it's like two steps forward one step back. I realize that I may die without there being a female president. I may die not having my reproductive rights back. I may die still with not squashing imposttor syndrome or not freeing women from midlife.
Like but I in my life I actually gave it my best. And it's hard to live knowing that you may not accomplish what you've dedicated so much time, blood, sweat, tears, sacrifice, but like it's like, you know, it's a warrior's journey. It's like, but it's still worth the fight. 100%. I mean, you interviewed Gloria Stein. Like, what was she thinking at 21 years old of what she was going to do to where it is today, which is I think she just Yeah.
I mean, and I think now when we say, "Oh my god, this didn't happen." And she's like, she just has this beautifific smile and energy and it's and she's still saying, right, we were there. It's like, but be joyful about it, you know? And I loved what she said when she said, "Every day I walk out of my apartment and I say hello to the first stranger that I see as a way of still practicing the art of like making connection. She is amazing. I've been to so many different events with her and she doesn't she has people do not stop coming up to her first of all wanting to take pictures obviously but then having us the these I can just tell intimate emotional conversations with her and she is there for every bit of taking it incredible.
Yeah, it really is. It's really super special. What is one thing you wish you could tell your younger self is to be brave not perfect. Like I I think that we are taught at the youngest of possible ages to strive for perfection, to be a good girl, to care what other people think, to shrink ourselves, to make ourselves small. And to me, when you start being brave, and I don't mean like bravery of like saving a baby from a burning building, but the bravery when you're walking down the street and someone bumps into you that you don't say, "I'm sorry." You know, the bravery that when you're in a meeting and someone says, "Any questions?" you immediately raise your hand even though you don't know exactly what you're going to ask.
Like the bravery in the smallest of possible ways I think unleashes and unlocks this muscle that you need to I think achieve your your fullest potential. Thank you so much. So where can people find you so we have over there? You can find me on Instagram at rashm johnny. You can find me at my soul midlife or wherever you listen to your podcast.
And you can find me at momsfirst.us. Thanks Reshma. Reshma has such an incredible way of flipping the script and making us question the things we've been taught to believe like imposttor syndrome. And she said it so powerfully. It's a lie.
It's a trick. And that really stayed with me after this. We automatically think it's biological inevitable or some part of being a woman. But hearing her unpack the history behind all this, how it's not something that has to define us was really eye opening. It's not about just fixing ourselves.
It's about fixing the systems that make us feel like this in the first place. And the way we then tied it into bigger conversations about how we value women's pain or more often how we don't value it really hits hard whether it's a health scare navigating permenopause or just trying to figure it out that now what so many of us including me are looking for those answers and feeling like we have to fight to even be heard. So I also love when she talked about wisdom and cultural differences around the world. How women in other parts of the world are revered, while here we're often told to just disappear. That made me really think, what if we redefined bravery, not as looking a certain way, but showing up for ourselves and being excited for what's possible because I see a lot of possibility with women out there.
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Thanks so much for spending time with me today. I'll see you next time on The Tamsen Show. The Tamsen Show is an original production by Authentic Wave. Executive producers Scott Weinberger, Kevin Bennett, and Rebecca Greersonen. Brand director Johanna Offnik.
Our line producer is Sabrina Sere. Editing by Zach Smith and Marquee Harris.
