I'm going to call out what I now know was narcissistic behavior in some of the men I've been with. I'm not diagnosing anybody. I'm telling you what it felt like to live with them or around them, and what I've come to understand they actually were. So, if you're sitting there listening and you're recognizing in your own life any of this, you're not crazy. And you're not alone.Most of us do not see it even when it's right in front of us. So, let's get into it. So, the first one set the pattern. I call him Mr. Big.I dated him first in my early 20s. He was older, he was established, he had moved through the world in a way I'd never seen up close before. I came from a hardworking family. I'd lost my mom at the age of 20. She had been sick for a long time.I was building a career in news. I was on the air in Philly, trying to figure out who I was. And then he walked in. Tall, magnetic, charismatic, and he noticed me. And it felt like the most powerful thing in the world to be noticed by this guy.So, there was the wine, there were books, there were gifts. He'd show me art. We'd go on these like We'd go out and we'd go to the park and listen to music. There was all these things like this is what you should be reading. This is what you should be doing.Then it turned into here's what a woman like you should care about. At the time I thought it was extraordinary. I thought it meant that he saw something special in me. I thought he was investing in me because nobody had ever done that for me before like ever. But as I look back, I always say he was not investing in me, he was building me.
He took like this raw material of who I was, this hardworking girl, and he started shaping it into the woman that I think that he wanted to be with. The wine I drank, which I never drank wine before, the books on my nightstand, the art that I was interested in, the opinions that were coming out of my mouth, and none of it was mine. It was his, and I called it love. And I remember I would always be like, what would he do? What would he do in this situation?
And it was just this quiet voice inside my head. So, I learned some point in my 30s he was not going to ever commit. And I had my life, I had my career, I had my relationships on my own. And then I was in my 40s and my first marriage was ending, and he was the first person I called. I couldn't even tell you why right now.
I want to spend a minute on that because somebody listening, one of you listening right now is probably done what I did or is going back right now or is thinking about going back, and I get it. It was like an easy thing to do. I trusted him. That was the truth of it all. He had been like in my life for so long that he was the first person that I felt safe enough to let know that I was in a bad marriage and I was getting out of it and getting divorced.
He was the first person I went to with hard things cuz I want I guess I wanted his approval. He was understanding and kind. He did listen. And he made me feel like I was going to be okay. So, I went back to him and I went back with him.
Because in the middle of the worst chapter of my life, he was the safest place to be. And I think he knew that. What I didn't see at the time was the pattern. As soon as I would start feeling like myself again and be doing my own thing in New York and get my life back, he'd find a way to pull me back a little bit. Like I didn't I couldn't get too sure of myself, right?
He'd have a little distance between us. He'd make sure he didn't call as often. He would be attentive and then not too attentive. And so I started sliding back into this pull and back and forth and back and forth. So there is a name for it and I want you to write it down.
It's the loop. You feel safe and then you don't and then you do and then you don't. And a narcissist will give you just enough to bring you back in and make you feel safe. And trust me, I went there first, you know? And then be cold to you and then be grateful and then be cold.
And that's not a relationship. That is a loop and you can spend years inside of one and them not even knowing you're in it. It doesn't matter what people tell you. Even if your family and friends have seen it, you don't realize it. And so I finally understood what was happening to me all along.
What he had been doing for all those years had nothing to do with loving me. He had been trying to build me. And so when I came back in my 40s, I think he was like, "Oh, okay. Well, she's still not the woman that I want to create her." And so so he's still like finishing the project, right? Mr.
Big was not the only kind of narcissist. There are a lot of different kinds out there. And the one that I committed to in my 40s was a completely different shape. This one was not building me from the ground up. This one was something else completely.
He needed to be the focus. He needed admiration. He was charming. He needed attention. There was not really room for anybody else.
Like if he was having a hard day, his day was the bigger day and that was what was important to him. And I didn't see any of this. I always felt like I was a little bit quieter, not so much like myself in the things that I like to do, I put on a back burner. So I guess I always just felt like I was making myself a little quieter and a little bit smaller to make room for him. And he could not apologize.
And this is something that I've heard from a lot of the experts. Like, there's different types of narcissists. If I would point out something that he had done, the response was always the same way. I would not have done this if you didn't make me do this. Nobody else makes me like this, just you.
I never do stuff like this. This is something about you that brings this out in me. And so that blame always came back to me. And I ended up being the one to apologize over and over again. And I'd be like, "Oh my gosh, I'm apologizing for something I didn't even do." And I would walk out of conversations feeling like I'd done something wrong when I only said aloud what he had done.
He couldn't handle criticism, not gentle criticism. And that is something, you know, if I had had these words back then that I have now, I would have understood it, and I would have been able to notice what was happening. So the one thing about the narcissism is the charm is real. And that is the thing I want you to hear because I think that this is where a lot of people get lost. Charm is real.
This guy could walk into a room and have everybody adoring him in minutes. He was warm, he was funny, he was attentive. And then I'd be like, "Oh my gosh, he is amazing." And then we'd leave the room together, and that warmth sometimes just went away, or the lights would just change or go out. And I would sit there thinking to myself, "Did I imagine this version of him that I was just in the room with 20 minutes ago that everybody loved?" And then there's that loop that we talked about earlier. Again, charm, cold, critical, disinterested, charm, cold, critical.
It goes on and on till you feel safe and you don't, and you feel safe and you don't. And I think that's what kept me coming back for more. And obviously, we have episodes where we go into this much deeper on a much more scientific level, but that is what you're dealing with if you're dealing with a narcissist. And the reason it was important for me to do an episode like that is because I think that part does a lot of damage for a long time. And so if you were dealing with somebody like that right now, or you were in a relationship like that, I want you to know that not your fault, you're not alone.
And if you have somebody that you can talk to, that is the single most important thing that you can do. I want to say one more thing because this type of narcissist always protected his ego above anything else and over time I actually found myself questioning what was real and what wasn't. And that that's the part that does the real damage. Not those bad moments, which aren't good, but that constant low-grade question of whether you can trust your own read on what just happened. So, he was a different type of narcissist than Mr.
Big. I have a collection. But he was not building me into someone. He was using me as kind of a backdrop. I was the wife, the support, the audience.
And the second that I stopped performing in that role, he punished me for it. There's no question about that. So, I really had to take some time to heal from that relationship and understand what I was dealing with. I will also say this, some of the smartest women that I know have been in these type of relationships. And I want to stop here and say something because I know what some of you are thinking.
How could you be in a relationship like that? How could you even go back with somebody like that? Trust me, I've heard versions of that question my entire life from people who love me, people who barely know me, from myself in the mirror at 3:00 in the morning. So, let me give you the answer I've come to because I think it matters. Being smart has nothing to do with it.
I was book smart, career smart, good at my job. I could read a teleprompter, I could read a story, I could read the room, but none of that protected me. The kind of intelligence we're talking about here is a completely different skill set and most of us were never taught it. And that's the part that I came to realize. A lot of us are face value people.
We assume the person in front of us is who they say they are. We don't walk into our lives looking for a con. We don't start a relationship looking for an angle. We take people at their word because we're honest people. And that's not a flaw in us, trust me.
That is a part of us we should not have to apologize for. But that's where it's important to be aware. Here's what I've learned. Narcissists look for people like that on purpose. I think they really scan for women who who kind, loyal, who come from good families, who are hard working and honest, and will give and give and give before they ever ask what they're getting back.
And when I look at the women who came before me in some of these relationships, they were women just like I was, and I was just kind of the next one in line. So, if you're sitting there listening and have been beating yourself up for years about, "How could I have not seen this? Code tamsen at checkout. So, here's what I want to give you today before you leave. I want to give you real tools.
They're tools that I still use today. I'm in an incredible marriage, an incredible relationship with somebody I love and loves me. But, I really had to use these tools over time. First, watch what he does, not what he says. The most charming man in the world can still be the man who makes you feel small at home.
Words are so easy. How they act, that is a truth. So, if his words and behavior don't match up, believe the behavior every single time. Number two, notice how you feel after you see him, not while you're with him. Like, charming men can make you feel great when you're with them.
That is a I mean, I think that's like a whole skill set in and of itself. But, notice how you feel maybe an hour later or a day later or something is kind of, you know, you're sitting with what they say. Are you more yourself, less yourself? Are you adding to who you are or are you quietly removing pieces to keep the peace? So, next I want you to pay attention to your friends and family.
You've got to trust them on this. The people who love you and the ones who knew you before, these people, I swear, can see things that you cannot see. My best friend, Diane, saw things about Mr. Big that I could not see. Another friend that I knew at the time saw thing Like, they they thought like, "What is wrong with you?" They were like, "You don't act like yourself.
You act like you're this like shriveling little violet. Like, what what are you doing?" And I was like, "You don't understand. You don't understand. He's not usually like this." So, I heard myself saying that over and over and over again. So, the best thing you can do is be surrounded with people that care about you, know you, and are willing to be honest with you.
All right, the next one. Test whether or not he can let you be right. Yeah, this one's hard. The first time you know something that he does not know, watch what he does. A man who loves you is going to be delighted by this.
A man who is collecting you or needs to be bigger, the bigger one in the room, he's going to find a way to just snatch that away from you. When I'm at Ira, I noticed that was the biggest difference. He was so happy for me to be right, or so happy for me to be, quote, smarter on something. He was happy to learn from me. He It was It's just such a clean, easy test.
I didn't even know I was looking for it, but it will tell you almost everything you need to know. Listen for the apology. Real apologies are specific. They name the actual thing that was done. A non-apology, aka a apology, will somehow deflect onto how you reacted, or how he wishes that you had felt instead of how you actually feel.
So, "Listen, I'm really sorry that I hurt your feelings. That is not what I intended to do in any way." Versus, "I'm really sorry you feel that way, Tamsen. I don't know what to say." Those both say I'm sorry, and one doesn't say I'm sorry. So, if you've been with somebody for a year and cannot remember the last time you apologized for a specific thing done, you should pay attention to that. And the last one, trust the small no.
The first time he ignored a no from you, the first time he pushed past a small boundary, the first time you said you didn't want something and he made you feel like you were the difficult one for it, you've got to pay attention to that moment, because those moments matter, and those moments eventually create big violations that never start big. They start with a small no that got rolled over and brushed aside, and the person on the other side of that small no needs to take note. So, here's what I want you to know. The version of me that walked into Mr. Big's life at 20 is not the woman sitting here at 55 today talking to you.
He would not recognize me. He would not want to hear any of this. The version of me in that next commitment is not the woman sitting here, either. I couldn't even imagine that. And that's the whole point.
They do not get to define who you are. You were a whole person before they showed up, and you're going to be a whole person after they're gone. The shame about not seeing it, the grief over the years you lost, you can start to set those down now. They lived in your body for a long time. I know it.
I know how it feels. It feels crappy. It feels scary. It feels like it's never going to go away, but you can get those back. So, if any of this hit, please let me know.
I know we talk about narcissism a lot here on the show. I know we hear about it a lot on social media, but I'd love for you to send me a message. Tell me which one you recognize, maybe both in your life. And tell me what you're walking away from or what you're noticing or maybe you don't have anybody like that in your life and I and I hope that for you. You can email me at podcast@tamsen fedel.com or you can leave a voicemail or text 917-382-4277.
That's 917-382-4277. And if you have a second, please leave a review. It really matters more than you know. There's a whole team of women behind the scenes building these podcasts for you and your review is really what lets us know what you want to hear each and every week. I'm here to make sure your next chapter is your most confident one yet.
I love you and I will talk to you in the next episode.
