It's great to be here, and I'm so sorry to hear that you had such a negative experience because I didn't have Sumos in my life. The reality is divorce can set you up to being happy. And so many the best part about my job is I see people every day and they come to me and they are depressed, they are sad, they are in the middle of this marose and I watch them go through the tunnel and at the end I can see a smile, a laugh, an ability to joke because the goal that we have as divorce lawyers is getting you to your better life and I I'm I heard about your experience but we're going to make sure that doesn't happen to others. That's right. We do want to protect other people because I wish I had known I wish id known you first of all but I wish I had known even the the questions to ask or what to think about and I think you you know you get into this moment and you know you get swept away quite frankly and that's what happens until there's a problem but but this is why I wanted to ask you on the show because you've been one of New York's top divorce attorneys for a long time.I started even though I'm very young even though you're very young to recount. What drew you to this work? Well, I I actually started when I worked in law school for a woman who was convicted of killing abuse her abuser. This is a woman who lived with a gang member in Chicago for six years, he beat the living hoo-ha out of her. And one day after he had had some alcohol and had passed out, she grabbed his gun and she shot him six times.She was immediately arrested and she was convicted of first-degree murder. And I was able to get her out through a clemency petition using the battered woman syndrome and that first opened up my eyes to the whole concept of domestic violence and the whole concept that people need help. Now once she got out of jail that was half the story because then we had to reunite her and her children. Her children had been taken away other people had had custody and then we started the process of getting back her children. So, I had this crazy experience even before I started law school and that's how I got into all of this.
Wow. In terms of wanting to make sure you're protecting people and making sure you you know because there's family involved too in all this. It's not two people. Absolutely. And then I discovered my love of money and then fighting over money and that just and that that sealed the deal for you.
That's the rest of it. That sealed the deal. You know, I've been noticing patterns. I always look for patterns as a journalist. Headlines I've seen recently.
The women quietly quitting their husbands. Quietly. Quietly. Some of them. Eat, pray, leave.
America makes it too hard and dangerous to get divorced. What is happening these days when it comes to divorce and trends or where we're at with things? One of the negative trends is is the following. We are becoming much less generous when it becomes to spousal support. There is a expectation that the non-moneyed spouse is going to go back to work even if it's a long-term marriage.
So when I started my career in 19 yesterday we had long-term or permanent spousal support that's essentially gone to the wayside in almost every state in the country and certainly in New York. No matter who makes more. No matter who makes more or how big the disparity is. So we no longer, you know, we nor unless there is some horrific reason, we do not give long-term or or permanent spousal support and that's a huge change and that's very scary to people. But you know that's really where we're going.
So let let's start from the beginning. What is the most common reason most people end up in your office? The most common reason is not adultery. It is the grass is it well it's two things. It's one is the grass is always greener and two is that people are not willing to put in the work it takes for a marriage.
Look under the best of circumstances things aren't going to always be rosy. You know marriage takes real work and there are going to be real life problems and you have to work with your partner to get through them. If the two of you are both not committed to doing that hard work, at some point there's going to be a crack that will lead to the end of the marriage. You try to send people away before you Oh, also all the time you do. Yes.
Okay. What do you do? Have them see a counselor? You know, I'm very good at many things, but I'm not good at when to push the button. Although I do watch a lot of Dr.
Phil, so I do feel like I and I have an opinion and I'm happy to give an opinion. But certainly [clears throat] my opinion is you know just just that. So people have to be ready to push the button and that's a decision they need to make and if somebody is not you know ready to push the button I'm not going to push it for them. And I learned that very valuable lesson early on in my career where we had a woman who was the subject of horrific domestic violence and you know I I looked at her and I said you got to do it. And we got through the entire divorce and then she went back to her spouse afterwards and the abuse became even worse and that's when I learned the very valuable lesson.
I can't be the one to make the decision to go. You have they have to they have to make that decision for you. What has being a divorce lawyer taught you about marriage? It's hard work. And it also taught me, I don't know how my husband stands me, but somehow somehow he does.
Is he scared of you? I think he's a little afraid of me. Hi, honey. But, it really taught me that it's it's a lot of hard work and and you really have to listen as much as you speak. Hard for me.
No, it's not. I've known you a while. I've known you a while. What do the numbers look like nowadays? What What do the numbers look like?
Okay. So, the numbers are are are a bit misleading and and I'll tell you why. You know, oh, 50% marriages end in a divorce. No, there's a difference between firsttime marriages and non-firsttime marriages because we have a lot of repeat offenders. We have a lot of people who, you know, get married, get divorced, serial people who get married and divorced.
And that really raises the numbers. It's it's you know one of my clients was speaking to his therapist and his therapist said you have a problem having long-term relationships with him women and he says no I've had a 30-year relationship with Sumas my divorce lawyer and I guess that's not really what she meant. Have you have you seen couples repair the relationship in the middle of the divorce process successfully? I mean the reality I was in one mediation and it was clear that these two really loved each other and sometimes that happens. Do you point it out?
I I in fact in in one case we were in the middle of the trial and it was clear to both me and the opposing council that this was a mistake and we took them out in the hallway and 10 minutes later it was an allout balling session of everybody crying everybody misunder you know remember the TV show Thre's Company of course there was essentially one theme to that show which was misunderstanding and so Whenever we see that there's a threes company misunderstanding, there certainly have been times when when we've gone and we say, "Look, let's let's talk this out." And there have been a number of times that the parties went back together. How often do they not go back together? How often do you think these marriages you know, marriages fail? I guess it's not I I thought it was like 50% of all marriages fail. You're saying that's not the case. 50% or or 40% of of all marriages fail, but those aren't all first marriages.
It's much lower for first marriages. There are a lot of people staying together. Are you seeing the divorce rate go up or go down these days? You know, the best part about we're pretty stagnant. We're pretty we're pretty steady.
We're stay You know, in good times you want to trade up. In bad times, you want to cut loose. And in and in stagnant times, you're bored. So we are at like the most steady you know area of law you can imagine. Now I do not like the term gray divorce.
However you you know you're familiar with the term especially because we spend a lot of money to make sure we are not gray. It's not personal to us. I hear a lot more about that of people leaving marriages whether it's pmenopause menopause during that time. Not because of I hesitate to say because of but during that time. Do you see a correlation in that or is that not anything you really have paid attention to?
It's a lot more than it ever has been. And the reason for that is number one, people are living much longer. And number two, societywise or societal wise, it is more accepting of older people to get divorced. And number three, you know, people are looking at their lives and saying, if I'm is this it? If if I'm unhappy, can I spend the rest of my life being unhappy, or do I want to just take a deep breath, jump, and try to see if I can find some happiness?
What mistakes do you see women making when it comes to the timeline or the pressure to get married quicker than men feel? Because I don't know that men feel that timeline that women feel. I mean, obviously, it's biological for children. You know, I have two daughters and they don't listen to me, but I I will keep on telling them, freeze your eggs. It gives you so many more options and and you never have to use them.
But if you ever want the option, it will be there because the biological clock is a real thing and it's it's legit and there are more health issues when you are older and you know, science is science. Yeah, it's funny. We we just had a conversation about fertility and egg freezing and how those n those numbers have increased, you know, drastically in a way that, you know, certainly was not around when I was in the middle of my in my divorce. It was kind of one of those luxury options. It wasn't anything insurance looked at it.
It was, you know, it was something like not very many, it didn't seem to me very many people talked about. Let's talk about in-laws and a role that a role that they play in all of this. Is that a real thing? I mean, we see the movies about it. We see the headlines about it.
We know people complain about in-laws. Does that get into your office and into the courtroom? Yes, but in many ways. My my favorite way is, and I call it you know, in-law law because oftenimes a client will come in and that client's parents want to control the entire case. And the divorce case, the divorce case, because they hated the wife or husband from day one, and they want to get theirs.
And it's you have to really navigate those cases to make sure that the parents or the grandparents, the in-laws don't control the divorce case because you will go from zero to 60 in in a heartbeat. But you see that a lot in adults in adults. Yes. Especially if they're the ones with the money. So what do you do?
What do you suggest to somebody that is dealing with something like that? Because I think we really want to make sure people have suggestions no matter where they are, whether they're, you know, in the area of gray divorce or whether they're in the area of in-laws interfering. If you are getting divorced, you need to make sure that your divorce lawyer knows that you are the client, not my parents, not this person, not uncle who is writing the check. I, you know, I am the client and therefore you need to take direction only from me. And that can be really hard especially if the parents are paying and especially with all the emotion involved they have to imagine.
That's right. So we talk about parents. Let's bring kids into it and the difference with divorces when there's children involved or not children involved because we do know that I don't think that's a it's a question that anybody has that a lot of times people stay in a marriage because of kids and for the children. That's right. Where what do you where do you come into play there?
Is it usually when they've made that decision or they're trying to figure things out because that can be horrific for a child to go through of any age. So, so it varies significantly. So, there are sometimes you know when I say to clients I hear you. You don't want to get divorced because you have young children, but do you want your daughters to grow up to know that it was it's okay for men to treat them like that? For men to speak to them like that for you know sometimes for for men to to hit you like that and you are being a role model for your children.
Every you know kids are sponges whenever they see this this is what they think is normal and sometimes you need to leave for [snorts] the children rather than despite the children. And and often times, you know, we we have kids who say, "I'm happier because at least my parents aren't fighting and they're much better friends now that they're not living together." And you know, sometimes they say, "Well, now I I am seeing what a happy relationship is with number two, three, four, five or you know, six spouse." You know, you have mentioned physical abuse a few times right now. Let's go into how common that is, how common it is, and maybe also how common it is not to talk about it. What I think is the most common topic to be swept under the rug is actually the emotional and the verbal abuse. It's being convinced that you have no worth, that you are everything you do is is horrible and wrong, that your opinion has no merit.
And often times, you know, obviously there's all types of abuse, but the most common that we see are one spouse will be a narcissist and will almost insert themselves into the brain of the other person so that they question everything that they do. And they literally stick up for their spouse when they are abusing them, saying, "Well, I deserved it." or well, they're right. Well, I was wrong. Well, the reason they did this is because I did this, that, and the other. And step number one in any of these divorces is to evict that narcissist out of their head.
It's almost like they put a chip in their spouse's head. And you've, you know, they're renting space in their spouse's head without paying rent, and you've got to evict them. And that's a hard process because sometimes these people, these narcissists are really smart. They're really good. They know everything about their spouse and they know exactly how to put pressure on that one little pressure point to get into their head so that they're the ones who are actually abusing themselves based upon a cue given by the narcissist.
You know, it's funny because the the last interview we've had on this show about narcissists came from a a therapist and a doctor, but hearing that word coming from an attorney, especially a divorce attorney, we're in New York, home of the narcissist. But but it really is something that's much more common than I realized. And are there some certain signs? So, if somebody is listening to this and they say, "Listen, I'm planning to go into a marriage, but wow, some of the things Sue Moss is saying are really resonating right now. Are there some signs of that narcissism before somebody ends up in your office that they should be aware of going into a relationship or a longer commitment?
If they always have to be right, even if it sounds like they are right, but if they always have to be right, if they correct you frequently, if and then and then it gets into general controlling behavior. [snorts] If they start telling you negative tidbits about your friends and family, convincing you not to spend as much time with your community of friends and family or loved ones than you typically used to, if they isolate you, if they say, "But I want to spend this time with you to you know," and and that causes you not to go to family reunions or to confide in your friends or they put themselves in the middle of you and your friends or you and your family. That's those are the beginning warning signs that if not dealt with in therapy are only going to continue. Are those couched always in because I care about you, because I love you, because I want what's best for you from a narcissist. Sure. And because I know I'm right.
What does a woman who who has been in a narcissist marriage how do how do they deal with that when they're coming in to go h how do they get to your office first of all because I feel like that's really hard. It's really hard. But when they get there I I play a little game with them. I go I take out a piece of paper and every time they rationalize some abusive behavior, you know, I count one. Do you let them know you're doing that?
Yeah. I go, "Okay, we're g I say we're gonna play a game. You go. Every time you you you apologize or you rationalize their behavior, I'm just gonna count. And I'm like, one.
And they're like, well, you know, he hit me, but this is what I did. Two. And they're like, well, he doesn't give me any money, but you know, he does give me an allowance. Three. And and we just count the things you must hear.
What? And it just keeps going. I'm It just keeps going. And then when I get to usually about 46, they're like, "Is that something?" And I'm like, "Perhaps, perhaps something." Is it usually the woman that files for divorce? No, it it varies.
It varies. It's probably about half and half. But if a woman comes in there, I I have to imagine that she feels like she is most women have done everything they can and beyond to keep that marriage going. Is that what you see as a pattern? That that that's usually the case.
But I we often have men who too have have tried their darnest to keep the marriage together. All right. But it takes two to tango. What do you want somebody who is going into a marriage now to know the most important thing is yes to be compatible. Yes.
To be in love. What else do you have to do? Because we're going to go into this category of talking about prenups. And I know that it makes some people cringe. Gift that keeps on giving.
I know it makes people cringe, but this is how you and I got together. Nothing says I love you like sign here honey. Well, and we didn't get together in full disclosure because of me having one, but just because you were talking about it and I had kept seeing things on social media about prenup prenup prenup and I thought this is a conversation that we have to have because I think it it gets a there's a connotation that that means like oh we don't feel like we're going to go to you know we're going to be together forever. So talk about what a prenup is and why somebody that is going into a marriage should you feel like needs to be sometimes yes and sometimes no. So I'm not a always you're not a pro prenup all the time.
No I mean I'm not anti- prenup. In fact I have a nice summer home because of prenups. No, I'm just kidding. Okay. The reality the re the reality is is the most important concept is that before getting into a marriage you have to talk about the tough issues.
Okay. That can be finances. Are are you gonna work? Are you gonna continue to work? Are we going to have children?
If we have children, are we both going to continue to work? There are certain areas where you really need to think about a prenup. And and this is not every case. If you have children from a prior marriage, you need to be thinking about a prenup. You need to think about a to protect them to protect them and to protect everybody from killing each other once you pass away and fighting so that everybody knows the rules.
Everyone knows the rules and maybe to protect your spouse but it's protect against you know later fighting that everybody knows this is what's happening. Two, if you are a part owner in a family business, you really want to talk about a prenup because your brother, sister, father, uncle, they don't want to be partners with your future spouse. And you know, sometimes people like me can go in and destroy a business in in a divorce process. It it it certainly can happen because you have no choice. Well, because you need you need to you need to figure out what's fair and you don't know what's fair until you really you know you need to see how the sausage is made.
So those are two scenarios. The next is if you have people who depend other people who depend on you. So if you have a a loser brother or I don't have a loser brother. Hi there brother. But if you you know if you have some relative who you need to take care of, you want to make sure that everybody knows the ground rules that every month I'm giving X dollars to my brother, which I'm not to to to support him or her.
So, it's important to have those discussions and and in those particular cases, I think a prenup or a postnup or as some sort of an agreement that could be followed under the law is entered into because those are pretty serious issues. For other people, you know, we're getting married later, especially in this town. You know and so people have already established they've already built up their career and their finances and if they go in you know there needs to be an understanding you know some spouses will think this is all mine and that will lead to fighting which which might crack the marriage. There needs to be an understanding what happens to that prior income, that prior stuff and and you know if two people have totally different views we should know that at the beginning. So we know prenup is before you get married before you say I do before postnup is once you've gotten married correct and then how do you do that?
You just it's the same thing but you just say we've made this decision. It's similar, but there are definite differences in terms of how easy or hard it is to set aside them. So there and it's some some jurisdictions do not allow for them. So there are are very real differences in those two sets of documents, but the concept is the same. Coming to an agreement ahead [clears throat] of time if we split or if one of us predescases the other.
Do you think that those are unromantic? It's not romantic or unromantic. It just is. It It's as romantic as you want it to be. So, I'm making sure that should something happen to me, you are getting X, Y, and Z.
Okay. That can be romantic. Yeah. If if I'm making sure that is that a will. Well, it's a will can be changed at any time.
A a a a prenup or a post-nup is much more in, you know, much more guarantees you of rights than a will that can be changed at any time. The same thing for a divorce. It it can be romantic. I want to make sure you are always taken care of or I want to make sure that your grandfather's $100 that he's giving to you will always be yours. That could be romantic.
So if somebody is already in a marriage, it's not too late to do a prenup, which is a postup. In most states in many states. In many states. Okay. Yes.
In New York. In New York. In New York. Call Sue. Yeah.
And then a prenup. Can that be updated at all? Of course. With a postup. Okay.
And then what should be in a prenup? As little or as much as you want with regard to all financial issues. Any issues concerning children are not enforcable because those rights concerning child support or custody really are the rights of the child and the children don't exist yet. So we can't contract away their rights. So really we're talking about financial issues and what we're talking about TR mostly is spousal support, property distribution which includes what happens to debts and what happens if one person dies before the other.
So those are the three main and we can do as much or as little as as people as people want. I want to talk about somebody trying to get out of a marriage. They've made a decision. They want a divorce. Okay.
They're trying to because narcissists, you know, and I've been very honest about it. The person that I was married to before Ira was a narcissist. There was no question about it. Not Ira. Doing great.
He's great. But that person was a narcissist. I didn't have the vocabulary for that. I had no idea. I didn't understand it.
I was protective all the time of that person and I was like not who I am sitting here today. Yes. It hurt me incredibly financially. It hurt my confidence even more than that. That's right.
Somebody is in a relationship like that right now which might have been much worse might be much worse than what I was going through. How do you start to go down the path to get to your office if you are trying to remove yourself from a relationship with a narcissist? You do it in small bite-sized steps. So, first you're like, I'm not getting a divorce. I'm just learning.
And we do a lot of that. You know, people will come and say, you know, just give me information. And you, the most important part of a divorce is understanding the ground rules, how it all works. What are the ground rules? What are the default rules if you don't have a prenup?
What are the def or if you have a prenup, what does the prenup say? Because most people walk into my office, they're like, I signed this document. I don't remember what it says. And I'm like, let's get the document. But what are the default rules?
Understanding how the process works, what are the steps, what happens day one, what happens day, you know, 100, how does it work, just getting the information. It is not scary when you take it in bite-sized steps, okay? Because you're not making a you're not making a decision. You're just learning. And somebody in a relationship with a narcissist needs to take those small steps to be able to make a big one.
Even before you get to that step is just look up narcissism because on the on on Mr. Google, there will be all the symptoms of a narcissist. And I can't tell you how many people are like, huh, you know, check, check, check. That's right. And that's when they realize maybe there's an issue.
I still worry about women that are don't even realize they're in these abusive relationships, too, cuz I think you can't tell them because you can tell them. Once you tell them, they usually turn on you that you're the problem. So, how do you jealous? You're jealous that we have such a great relationship that you're you're creating problems and then the narcissist when they learn about this does their best to to to excise you from the relationship. How do you help somebody that you know maybe is in a relationship like this whether it's a verbal abuse or maybe you don't know if there's physical abuse but you can definitely see the verbal abuse.
I'm sure you've seen that in your, you know, in your real life and as a divorce attorney, you have a lot more expertise with that. Often times, the the the key for many cases is when the narcissist's behavior turns on the children, it's okay if you say that to me, but you know, when you say that to the child, so oftenimes you say, if a man said that to your daughter or to your niece, what would you do? But but I deserve it. I I you don't No, you don't understand. I I You don't know what I did because a chip has been implanted.
Because the chip isn't implanted. And and step number one is is to take it outside of yourself and say if that behavior went to somebody else, what would you think? What would you say? How would you feel? And that starts the process.
But it is it is hard. It is it is people who are in relationships with narcissists are really in a fog and it's a fog that has been created for them. They're in a tunnel and it's going to take a while to come out of the tunnel. But it's it's the best part about my job. Oh my god.
I I can't tell you how many people come in and they're like, "You're not going to want to take my case." Okay. Don't know why you're here then. You're not going to take my case because you know, my husband is the scariest person you've ever seen. And I'm like, you know, is is he, you know, has he ever killed anybody? Has he ever this?
I'm like, then I'm not so scared. And then at the end THEY'RE LIKE, GO GET HIM. Go kill him. And then I'm like, oh, you're out of the tunnel. That and you know, my my other favorite, this is actually the most common.
I'll be with a client. We'll this that and the other. You know, hopefully you settle, but you know, oftentimes you have to go to court. And it's the night before court. And and the client just looks terrified on a Zoom or in my office.
And I say, "Okay, what's going on?" And they go, "You're going to meet my husband and he is going to charm you and you are going to think I'm the biggest liar because he's everything he says is so correct and you are going to be every the judge is going to be charmed by him and you're all going to think I'm crazy." And I'm like, "Well, first of all, you pay me to believe you, so that's really not going to happen." But I can truly tell you I highly doubt it. And then I meet these guys and they are just ridiculous. And and like not only do I am not going to be charmed, but the judge is not going to be charmed. And they're often wearing brosts and and and I it just it's just amazing. I'm everyone thinks that I'm going to meet their spouse and think swoon and swoon swoon.
One woman and this was the smartest woman I ever met. Smartest woman I ever met. And she says this to me [snorts] and I, you know, because she's the smartest woman I ever met in the 2008 drop in the stock market. She tells me a month before, "Get into cash. It's all going down." She She's the smartest woman I know.
And she tells me this, "I'm going to be swooned by this guy." He walks in and it was Tony from Saturday Night Live Fever. It was like I was like, "You've got to be kidding me." He He was walking with paint cans. I not really. But it was It was all believable. And I go, "Please tell me not that guy.
Anybody but that guy. You cannot think that that guy is going to swoon anybody." And she's like, "What? You don't see it?" And I'm like, "Oh, dear God." But you've se you have seen it all. Is there one, without naming names, an unbelievable case that you have seen or or taken care of, or are they all pretty unbelievable? There's so many.
There there are so many. And and people do crazy things like you know, I get a call from an opposing council. He goes, hi. I just got a call from my my client and your client is with a sledgehammer by his Porsche. Oh my gosh.
And I'm like, no. I just do me a favor, Sue. Could you call your client? Sure. Call my client.
Funny thing, they tell me you're outside with a sledgehammer by his porch. Yeah, I'm gonna I'M GONNA TAKE DOWN THAT PORSCHE. Could you Could you not? I think it will really hurt our case. Oh, really?
You're part attorney, part therapist, part friend, part girlfriend. I think it will really hurt our case. Okay. And we saved we saved we saved yet another Porsche. With everything you've seen, do you still believe in love, Sue?
Love. I love love love. Of course. I've been married for a long time. 20 23 years. See, I got that.
I got that because my husband thinks I can't remember our wedding dates. So, no, I do I do love and and being a divorce lawyer doesn't mean that we don't love because, you know, most of the time our clients go and they get married to somebody else and and are happy. So, and and that's, you know, that just, you know, in in economics, you know, sometimes there's some costs where, you know, you you've you've put everything into a relationship, it's just not going to work. So, you've got to cut bait and try to go to your more efficient outcome. So, even under the theories of economics, divorce makes sense.
One thing to leave everybody with, whether they're going into a marriage, getting out of a marriage, not sure where they are right now in all of it, but want some advice from Sumas, breathe. Breathe and think. If you're not sure, first of all, you need a sounding board. Whether it be a best friend or a relative or a therapist, you need a sounding board. Because going through a divorce is a bit of a marathon.
It has, you know, mile five, which you're feeling great. You know, mile 15, not so much. You know, mile 20, you want to throw up. But there is a beginning, a middle, and yes, there is an end. And this will end.
Even the worst divorces ever have an end and and you'll be okay. If somebody cannot afford to go to a divorce attorney, what is that option there? Is that a mediator? Is that is there so mediators are terrific but for four categories? Mediation is terrific in all except for four categories.
One, domestic violence. Two, if you don't know what the assets are, if you don't know what the assets are, you can't mediate. And I know people are like, well, we'll the mediator will find out. No, you you you're really going to need to dig harder. Number three is if you lose every argument, you're not going to do very well in a mediation because the same pattern of you losing is going to happen in the mediation.
And the fourth one, and this is one that shocks you, if you feel overly guilty, I've never in my over 30 years of practicing divorce law had a case where it was one person's fault. Maybe they'll it will walk in my door tomorrow, but I've never had a case where it was one person's fault. So, unless it's domestic abuse, there's always a little something. So, well, domestic viol Yeah. Okay, maybe.
But, but but if you feel overly guilty, you cannot mediate because you will not be able to to protect your interest. So, what are the options if somebody cannot hire a divorce attorney? If if there is domestic violence, there are a lot of domestic violence organizations, Sanctuary for Families, Safe Horizons in New York and and all over put that list and they're terrific. The next option is we have a lot of each court has a represent yourself self-representation office. We call it a prosay office where you can go in and you can help or you just go you just go.
Our our judges are people and and they will really help to to move it along, but don't use that as an excuse. Sue, it's so good to see you. Thank you. Sure. I feel like we're going to have a lot of questions.
So, I I have a feeling you're going to be coming back for It's my favorite game, Stump Mos. All right. We we will never we never stump you. We'll make sure to get all those resources though. You can get those to us so we can put them in the show notes.
All right. Thank you so much Midi, the care women deserve.
